Men's Health Forum: This is a discussion on testicular atrophy caused by high E2: help! within the Anabolic Steroids forums, part of the extensive steroid information at MESO-Rx; Hi Guys,
Just got back from my follow up with my doc. I was on 250mg T enanthate every 14 ...
Hi Guys,
Just got back from my follow up with my doc. I was on 250mg T enanthate every 14 days for about 4 months now... I never used AAS. I have ideopathic hypogonadism. Had this since puberty.
Here are a few of my labs:
E2: 39 (optimal = 27)
Total T: 9,22nmol/l = 266 ng/dl (ref 320-1000 ng/dl)
Free T: 149,1 (don't know the referance range here)
Androstanediol gluc: 22,3 (what's this?)
DHEA: 332
I did get testicular atrophy. My doc also said I had a mild gynecomastia. I have had this since puberty and it didn't get worse. Yep: I have had tits all my life...luckily it's a small A cup. .. I also have fat tissue on my hips.
My doc said the E2 is the cause of the gyne and the atrophy. That's a strange conclusion, don't you think? I never heard of the link between E2 and atrophy??
Also, he expected me to grow a beard and some hair on arms or chest. (I'm still a babyface at 32, and it FREAKS ME OUT ) Why does this work for Female-to-Males and not work for me??? You cannot believe what a social handicap this is...
He has now put me on 250 mg T enanthate every 10(!) days and 1/4 Arimidex every 3 days. What do you guys think? He also thought of putting me on 250 mg T enathate every 10 days, with small doses of HCG every 3 days...but for this he wanted to wait until my LH results came in... It looks like SWALE, but it's not exactly the same, is it....
First doing T shots every 2 weeks drives up E2 and puts you on a roller coaster ride up after the shot and back way down by the next one. I did as high as 300 mgs. of Deop T shots every other week and it drove me nuts. I did not feel good on this at all but felt better then doing nothing.
I have been on TRT for over 21 yrs. and never felt 100% the last TRT was Gels. I printed out Dr. John's protocol and gave it to my Dr. and told him I want to try this. I am doing 150 mgs. of Depo T shots every week and 500 IU's of HCG 3 times a week MWF. When I added the HCG my levels doubled and I feel the best I ever felt on TRT in all the 21 yrs. I have been on it.
E2 will not cause Atrophy but will cause you to have ED, trouble reaching an orgasm, panic attacks, trouble peeing, rashs and brain fog. All of this went away for me when I got my E2 down.
Arimidex is some strong stuff be careful you don't drive your E2 to low that is just as bad as being to high. I now use Indlolpex/DIM to keep my E2 down.
Using this I am 61 I got my morning wood back after 35 yrs. of not having them.
It can take 6 months to a year having your levels leveled for you body to repair that damage that low T has done to your body and brain. So don't be in a hurry for a fast cure. Time is on your side.
__________________
Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see.
Phil
When were those labs taken in relation to the injection? Maybe I'm blind but I didn't see it in there. Anyway, if those labs were taken a day before or even on the day of the injection then that may be why the total T is so low. At 250mg your T spikes WAY above the normal top of the range and then by the time of your next shot it could be down too low. Moving your shot up by 4 days will alleviate this roller coaster affect a little bit but may also keep your overall levels too high.
And ditto on what the other fella said. Listen to pmgamer....he knows his shit!
When were those labs taken in relation to the injection? Maybe I'm blind but I didn't see it in there. Anyway, if those labs were taken a day before or even on the day of the injection then that may be why the total T is so low. At 250mg your T spikes WAY above the normal top of the range and then by the time of your next shot it could be down too low. Moving your shot up by 4 days will alleviate this roller coaster affect a little bit but may also keep your overall levels too high.
And ditto on what the other fella said. Listen to pmgamer....he knows his shit!
Yes, the labs were (of course) taken at 8AM the day of the shot (=day 14). I usually have the shot around 18PM. I know that we are injecting a bit more T than average. But that is because my body as a very low baseline (220 ng/dl) and because it does not react to a lower dosage. After 2 years of trying, I still look like a teenager (with skinny arms, fat belly, fat on hips and small tits and no facial hair and no hair on arms, legs and chest). So we are trying to initiate/start up the process of those secondary male characteristics...
As for SWALE's protocol: I know it by heart, same for the AACE guidelines...
Maybe I should wait it out a bit more as Phil stated. But at this moment, I feel like I'm getting nowhere. Yesterday all my collegues laughed at me because they saw a commercial of Gillette. "Let's buy one for Axl", they said, "he can save it for when he's old enough..." and started laughing. It really hurts... I don't want to take that sh*t anymore...I want to be normal...
Axl
Have the gynecomastia investigated mate. I was operated on in 2003 and it was the best thing I ever did. No more tits
pmgamer18
Good to hear "success at last" for you, particularly the morning woods. Seems you have got the balance right and doesnt it feel great???
Yes it does feel dam good I am losing weight yesterday I lost 3.5 more lbs. I am working out on HUR Mach.'s. http://www.hur.fi/en/index.asp?menu=...d_fitness_arms
For 3 months now 3 days a week for 2 hrs. each day. I feel dam strong now and need to up the load again it is getting to easy.
__________________
Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see.
Phil
Yes, the labs were (of course) taken at 8AM the day of the shot (=day 14). I usually have the shot around 18PM. I know that we are injecting a bit more T than average. But that is because my body as a very low baseline (220 ng/dl) and because it does not react to a lower dosage. After 2 years of trying, I still look like a teenager (with skinny arms, fat belly, fat on hips and small tits and no facial hair and no hair on arms, legs and chest). So we are trying to initiate/start up the process of those secondary male characteristics...
As for SWALE's protocol: I know it by heart, same for the AACE guidelines...
Maybe I should wait it out a bit more as Phil stated. But at this moment, I feel like I'm getting nowhere. Yesterday all my collegues laughed at me because they saw a commercial of Gillette. "Let's buy one for Axl", they said, "he can save it for when he's old enough..." and started laughing. It really hurts... I don't want to take that sh*t anymore...I want to be normal...
Listen I don't want to here you talk like this anymore life is to short to be upset by others ragging on you to make there selfs feel better. Hell I have been at this for 21 yrs. and just now found the right treatment and the last thing I could care about is what others think about me. I was so dam sick with this and to look at me you could not tell I was so sick. I was put down all the time at work. Shit like when are you going back on vacation when I just got back from sick leave. Don't let this shit get in your head. I wish I never had to shave. I am hairy all over my body and get the clippers out once a month and cut all the dam hair off I hate it. So be careful you might get what you wish for and not like it. The dam hair on my chest grows so long you need to comb it let a long see my dick the dam hair grows longer then my dam dick if I let it. Be happy with what you have and only pray to feel better that is all that counts.
If what we call normal, and every one looked like this normal this would be a boring world.
__________________
Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see.
Phil
Axl, sorry I don't remember this and I don't have the time right now to go through all of your old posts to find out....how long have you been on HRT and how long have you been on the 250mg/14 day regimen?
Ok, here's my reply to the thread so far without knowing your history.
First, in regards to others making fun of you...I feel your pain bro. PM, you are right in that it does not matter what others say. I have a thought though...is it possible that for men who had normal T levels through their youth to have learned to have "hard skin" at a young age and for those who had low T to have never toughened their skin in the first place? I too have always been very affected by comments from others. I have never been confident. I've never had good self-esteem. Only now that I have been on HRT for over a year am I ever STARTING to have any progress in that area. I'm just saying we may need to give Axl a small break here. And Axl, he is right, it doesn't matter what they say. It's tough though, I know. I got comments like that all the time about not having hair. Made me want to cry sometimes.
When I finally got tired of all of the shit at my work I told my boss (I'm military BTW) that I wanted to address everyone in the shop and what it was about. It was one of the hardest things I ever had to do. My voice was cracking and I thought I would have a panic attack. I started out saying, and this is no joke, "I'm tired of all of the bullshit you guys keep talking. If you have a fucking problem with me and the way I look GET OVER IT!! You wanna feel better about yourselves? Fine, find someone else to berate! I have a legitimate medical problem that I am working on with a doctor. It really sucks and I wouldn't wish this on any of you. I take multiple injections every week, get blood drawn every month and the docs aren't even sure if the regimen I'm on is the right one yet. So do me a favor and cut your shit. Anyone have a problem with that?"
I put that in quotes because that is almost exactly what I said! (Can't remember THAT well but I was blunt and somewhat rude about it) It was tough but well worth it. You don't have to be specific about your condition, it's none of their business. Be vague about it just enough so that they know it's serious...maybe they may even have some sympathy for you if they think it's really bad.
Ok, on to your labs. If the Free T range is what I think it is then at least that one is good. Otherwise, you definitely need some work on your regimen. The E2 is probably WAY over the top at the beginning of the 2 weeks as that's also when your T is way over the top. The T dropping low on the second half of the 2 weeks is only going to give you an emotional roller coaster that won't be any fun. The Arimidex is probably a good idea but I don't know much about the dosing schedule on that one!
HcG every 3 days is a bad idea! This is going to raise your T levels even higher during that first week...higher T=higher E2. It should be used only during that last week. I don't have any clinical info to go off of here but I'd be willing to bet that for your particular situation the HcG would be best on day 10 and 11 (yes the day of and day after injection). Your T level should still be OK on day 10. My theory is that the HcG on those days would help bridge the gap better than dosing it at every 3 days throughout.
Also, the T is what causes the testicular atrophy. This is normal. Nothing to worry about. HcG will return them to normal size. High E2 does cause the gyno. If you had gyno as a teen and have high E2 now I'd keep a close eye on it! May want to see if the doc will allow you to keep Nolva on hand just in case.
As for the hair and other masculine affects, I can comment better on this once my previous post is answered....how long you've been on.
Weatherlite thanks for your help.
Here is my TRT history. I have never used AAS. I went to an endo because my girlfriend was worried about the fact that I was tired all the time, that I only wanted to sleep, I had no interest in nothing, I was depressed, I have a female-like fatdistribution, I can't put on any muscle, etc.
2003-april 2004: bloodtesting at various endo"s, all showed low T, on average about 220 ng/dl. SHBG is always under the range, DHT and DHEA are always very high.
april 2004-august 2004: HCG (Pregnyl) 1500IU every 4 days. Did not work for me. I was still deadtired. Total T went from 220 to 445 ng/dl towards the end of the treatment. Normally this should have been a lot higher given the HCG-dosage.
august 2004 - may 2005: No medicins, only testing. Total T went back to 220 ng/dl within 2 weeks. Docs do more bloodtesting. The Insuline tolerance Test proved that I also have low Growth Hormone: 20 mE/l (should be above 30mE/l). I also have low cortisol, low SHBG, high DHEA. One doc thinks I am a lost case and puts a stamp Cronic fatigue without androgen receptors on me. That means that he thinks I cannot have any treatment. He sends me to a shrink to "learn me live with it". I went to another doc for a second and third opinion. In april I found a knowledgeable doc.
May 2005 - september 2005: T enanthate injections 250 mg every 14 days. I feel better, except for the period two days after the injection and two days before the next injection. So, psychologically, I feel a bit better. I know I would even feel a lot better when I can look 'normal'. On the physical side, nothing has changed: no extra hair, no normal muscles, no more stamina, no voice deepening,...Here is where I got myself tested again. The relevant values of this test are in my first post.
September 2005 - now: T enanthate 250 mg every 10 (!) days, 1/4 Arimidex every 3 days.
testicular atrophy caused by high E2: help! 
.. I also have fat tissue on my hips. 
) Why does this work for Female-to-Males and not work for me??? You cannot believe what a social handicap this is...
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