Test Problems 4yrs post cycle

[muscleslab]

I hope my post here can provide some guidance on what to expect in the event that a young person is coming off AAS and is experiencing low testosterone. Also, I have been doing a little reading on the board, and I have received some contrary but marginally successful advice from doctors, so I would really appreciate it if the knowledgeable people here would give their 0.02 on my situation.

I am 27, when I was in college and just out of college(22-24), I did three 2mo. cycles separated by approximately 6 mo. in between each cycle. Here are the cycles:

Test Enan./500mg/wk., 400 Eq mg/wk, 50mg Dbol/day
Test Cyp./500mg/wk., 400 Eq mg./wk, 40 winstrol oral (I think the winny might have been bad)
Test Prop. 150mg 3 times a week, Trenbolone 350mg/ week, and Zambon Winny Inj.50mg 7 times a week.

At the end of every cycle, I ran clomid 100mg/day for two weeks and 50mg/day for the next two weeks or three weeks.

I seemed to recover fairly well from the first two cycles, but the I crashed hard after the third. This led me to go see a doctor for help at the age of 25. Here are my blood test results for the last two/three years.

Blood Sample1

Total Test. 212ng/dl
LH 6.2 mIU/ml
Free Test. 12ng/dl

Blood Sample2

Total Test. 360ng/dl
LH 9.2 mIU/ml
Free Test. 14ng/dl

Blood Sample3

Total Test. 550ng/dl
LH 9.3 mIU/ml
Free Test. 16ng/dl

There was approximately 6 months in between Blood Sample 1 and Blood Sample 2 and 1 year between Blood Sample 2 and Blood Sample 3.

I am due for a Blood Sample, but I do not currently have health insurance, so I can’t afford one. While I definitely feel better than I did at Sample1, I know that I am not the same know as I was before I used AAS. Perhaps, I never will be the same? However, I would like to regain as much natural testosterone as possible. I have seen two Doctors--one general practitioner and one Endocrinologist...when I had insurance. Both doctors did not want to treat me at first.

The general practitioner said he was morally torn on whether or not to treat me, because I used AAS. This same doctor regularly treated HIV positive gay people at his clinic. I am not making a judgment on being gay, but my small journey into AAS was not any more risky than their conduct. This Dr. tried to tell me that the 212ng/dl Total Test. was normal. I didn’t take no for an answer, and he said the best advice he could give me was to wait and my body would start producing Test. I also got an endocrinologist referral. The endocrinologist said that she would give me topical cream, in a dose that would make me feel better, but would not shut down the HPTA. She also said that I could do nothing and wait. She did not seem too certain about the topical cream not inhibiting my HPTA, so I decided against it, and I did nothing. I did get my second and third samples. I told the Endocrinologist that many people use Clomid, Nolvadex, Arimidex, and HCG to restart HPTA, and I asked if she thought any combination of these might be an option. She said that they would only serve to inhibit my testosterone production. I knew she was wrong (unless HCG is used by itself, right?), but I am not smart enough to argue with a doctor.

All of my samples took place at the same lab, supervised by the same Gen. Practitioner. After the third sample, he said I should be optimistic because the samples are showing a constant upwards trend. It was been approximately 9 months since my last sample, and I might be improving, but I KNOW I am still not back to pre-AAS levels. I have been taking Zinc at 50mg/day before bed for approximately 6 mo.

Also, I realize I am 5-6 years older than I was when I started AAS, and this might influence my Test. levels, but I feel 550ng/dl is a bit low, as charts on this board seem to indicate that I should be in the 660-690 ng/dl range. I am particularly concerned about my Free Test. levels as the Dr. indicated this level has the greatest causal connection to sexual function, and this is an area where I have experienced what appears to be a high degree of damage. My erections are less hard, more difficult to keep, and ejaculations occur VERY quickly. As a result, sex (when I have it–much less these days because my girlfriend dumped me) is very stressful, as I am not sure if I can get or keep an erection. Obviously, I want to return to a more “normal” sexual performance even if it is not as good as it used to be.

I would like to know what people think on where I should go from here. Should I continue doing nothing but Zinc. Should I stop Zinc? Should I consider a clomid + nolva stack like Dano2718?

I hope this post helps people who are starting in their process to get normal test levels back. I was shocked on how hostile the medical profession was to me, and guys who need help have to be persistent. I guess the best/only advice I got was to do nothing. I know many guys here are in situations worse than mine regarding their test levels, good luck to you all, I know how it feels, when I was at 212, it was lonely and terrible. This board is a good start on getting help to people who need it.

bpdl

[JustOne]

The general practitioner said he was morally torn on whether or not to treat me

How did you get your doctor to be that open to you? admitting hes "morally torn" rather then straight out lying.

Its not a matter of being smart enough, in fact the more medical terms you throw around the more they will bottle up and lie.


1st off, you should of been stacking those cycles with .5mg of arimidex a day and started your PCT before actually finishing the cycle.

Theres reason to believe clomid and nolva can supress T as bodybuilders complain when they stack anti-e drugs with there cycles it hinders there gains. But in your case running it would most likely benefit you, not too sure of that.

Your samples need to be done at the same time each morning, its important to the accuracy.

Start taking Copper 2-5mg a day.
Also do 100-200mg B6 a day.

I would get a more complete assay.
Total Estrogens, DHT, liver function etc, see the TRT recipe for success sticky and get the assays from there and use them for the next blood test, make sure its done before 10am and fasting for 12 hours with plenty of water.

[Matt Muscle]

Originally Posted by muscleslab

At the end of every cycle, I ran clomid 100mg/day for two weeks and 50mg/day for the next two weeks or three weeks.

I seemed to recover fairly well from the first two cycles, but the I crashed hard after the third. This led me to go see a doctor for help at the age of 25. Here are my blood test results for the last two/three years.

Blood Sample1

Total Test. 212ng/dl
LH 6.2 mIU/ml
Free Test. 12ng/dl

Blood Sample2

Total Test. 360ng/dl
LH 9.2 mIU/ml
Free Test. 14ng/dl

Blood Sample3

Total Test. 550ng/dl
LH 9.3 mIU/ml
Free Test. 16ng/dl

I would suggest that your PCT was to short, did not include Nolvadex and there was also no mention of a taper, which seems to be extremely important for a successfull recovery.
Clomid can have an intial stimulatory effect on the Hypothalamus and the Pituitary but used just on its own for 4-5 weeks might cause the HPTA to stall once its stopped. It also has the abilty to desensitise the pituitary to GHRH. So if Nolvadex was not used perhaps this may have occured to some degree.

You are recovering, but at a very slow rate. The HPTA can from what I have read, get stuck in "low gear", and possibly thats what has happened to you.

Run another PCT course with perhaps just Nolvadex with a minimum of 6 weeks before you start to taper. I think dropping the dosage by just 2.5mgs a week is the appropriate taper. Its also important to get labs done at the right intervals.
Contact Van Man, as he has had some experience using Nolva successfully and has posted some usefull information in regard to this.

[muscleslab]

Thanx to the guys who have written in already, I really appreciate it. I realize that my PCT was flawed. However, it does seem to me that in the short span of the last 4-5 years PCT treatments have become more "complex" so to speak. I did not run arimidex before, because it was simply too expensive---I feel stupid now---but I can't redo my previous PCT.

I want to make sure I am understanding what you are recommending with Nolvadex. 6 wks at say 20mg/day, and then tapering 2.5mg a wk?

muscleslab

[JustOne]

Did you or do you have any gyno symptoms?

your blood tests look like you are primary if anything, I dont know if nolva will benefit you or not yet, I think you should start the B6, and get more labs done.

[muscleslab]

Justone,

Sorry, I forgot to answer your previous question. I didn't really "get" my doctor to be that honest. He just said it after I expressed some frustration with everything in my second visit...I basically had to lobby the nurse to get him to see me for the second time. He left a message on my phone that said something like..."a 212 total testosterone level, while somewhat low, is within the normal range, if you have any questions call." I called and lit into the nurse and she agreed with everthing I said, which was mainly that 212 is not normal for a guy who is 25. On my next visit the Dr., he then expressed his "moral" concern with treating a FORMER AAS user.

As for gyno, I have had no problems. In fact, I experienced virtually zero of the common side effects associated with AAS...I did have a very slight increase in acne, huge gains in the gym, and a terrible crash after my third cycle.

You mentioned that I sounded "like a primary". I am sorry, but I am unsure what you are getting at.

musclelsab

[Andrew Androgen]

You need to find another doctor!

[Ramstein II]

Whoa, wait a second, here. Bro, you are jumping to major conclusions here. Your last blood test was very much normal and healthy. To say that you have low T levels now because of certain symptoms you’ve described is a major assumption. You need to have a blood test in the morning to see what’s going on. Based on your last blood test, I doubt you’re hypogonadal. I think so many people are blaming all kinds of things on “low T” when they are not “low.” Your last test certainly wasn’t. Do you think it’s worth taking a bunch of drugs that have various side effects to go from mid 500s to mid 600s total T is worth it? I don’t. I doubt it will make a difference in anything. The medical research out there shows that HPTA shut down is very reversible on its own, especially when use is short, ie. Less than 4 months. There’s not reason for your HPTA to have suddenly malfunctioned after your last test. I think its irresponsible for people to tell you to take a drug like Nolvadex, which I might add is not a benign, minor drug, without a blood test.

I hear so many guys complaining about erection problems, libido problems, depression etc… Hey, welcome to adulthood. I know a lot of guys who have problems in adulthood blame their brief experimentation with AAS. I think it’s a major stretch as HPTA recovery is the norm in the VAST majority of cases even without SERMS or HCG. The hypothalamus is your hormone thermostat, and it works very well. Hypogonadism is usually caused by the pituitary not working or the balls not working. Injury or tumor is often the cause. Look at your lifestyle—your work hours, your relationships, your diet, sleep, all that… This can all affect your mood and libido.

Yes, zinc is good. But, don’t make assumptions, my friend when your lab results are contrary to your own assumptions.

I think the total T numbers people on this board think are “optimum” are actually high. T is not the solution to all vague ailments and complaints.

[muscleslab]

I have tried to do a little research here and on WEBMD, and I have gleaned so far that someone can be primary hypogonadic or secondary hypogonadic. WEBMD was useless. I have found several posts here discussing primary and secondary hypogonadism.

In my very short reading on primary hypogonadism here is my understanding:

Clomid increases the LH level, which would then increase the testosterone level in men whose testes are working. However, where the testes are slow to start or not working clomid alone won't increase natural testosterone.

This makes sense with my experience, because in my first visit to discuss the results of my first blood test the doctor mentioned that my LH levels where high (perhaps a result of my PCT which included only clomid) compared to my testosterone levels. He saw this as a reason to be optimistic, and he indicated that my testicles would likely start producing testosterone at a greater rate in the future, as the testes would seek to be in proportion with my LH levels. That is to say, he indicated that the LH levels I had would almost require an increase in testosterone, as my LH level was over 9 in my second visit while my total test. was still below 400!

If I am primary hypogonadic, then it means I need to treat this with something that will cause my testes to start working, i.e. HCG. The post I read suggested reading TRT: A recipe for success with an HCG update. I located allthingsmale, but I did not locate the recipe for succes or the HCG update.

In reading these other posts, I realized that I forgot to mention that between my second and third blood samples which were a year apart (approx. 360ng/dl and 550ng/dl respectively) I took a course of Tibestan using the dosages recommended on the box. I definitely felt a difference while using the Tribestan, but this left after I stopped. However, it was in that year that I had my biggest increase in total and free testosterone. Is another 8wks of Tribestan an advisible course?

That is to say, will the Tribestan work on my nuts and not just my LH levels?

Is HCG more advisible? If so, it will suppress my natural test levels while I am on it right? So I should run nolva, and perhaps clomid after the HCG cycle? Many of the old posts seem to suggest that HCG at 500iu's 3 times a week for 5 wks might be a good course of action.

Any comments?

muscleslab

[Ramstein II]

Musclelab, are you not listening?

YOUR LAST TEST RESULTS WERE NORMAL. YOU ARE NOT HYPOGONADAL. YOUR BALLS WORK.

After your cycle your LH was high from Clomid but T was still low because the balls had weakened from disuse. There is a lag time to get them working at full capacity. On your last test it shows that your leydig cells were producing T just fine. Dude, it's been a long time since you used AAS. I think taking HCG or Nolvadex would be a big mistake right now. GET TESTED again if you think you're low. I seriously doubt you are. You are blaming T for your problems when the evidence is to the contrary.