Undecanoate - The Future Ester of TRT?

[Stez]

I was doing some thinking. The longer the ester, the more gradual the release of testosterone. Which of course means stability of serum levels. Most common are the enanthate and cypionate esters which have half lives of between 6-12.5 days depending on which source u go to for your information. Then there's undecanoate which has a halflife reported of up to 16.5 days!

So i messed around on www.roidcalc.com which I have a lot of experience with in correlating the maths on it to my own lab results, so I know how the figures on the website "in theory" will end up in my blood tests "in practice".

All I can say is that I'm very excited about the possibilities in using an undecanoate ester. Currently everyone is looking at shooting cyp/enan more OFTEN which of course does work (and ive done it), but it's a pain in the ass. I say we should head in the other direction and instead of making the interval between shots shorter, we should be making the half life longer!

I did some pubmed searches on the topic, and many studies agree that undecanoate is the future of TRT. Apparently there is already a undecanoate test available in europe "nebido" and it will soon be marketed to the States and Australia.

According to my calculations, shooting an undecanoate ester once every 14 days would put me at the top of normal range after shooting, and then after 14 days i would still only be just below the middle of the range. Shooting once a week, levels in my body would only change 1 point per day on a (10-33) normal scale. (i dunno if thats pmol or nmol or whatever, doesnt matter). Basically that means on a 10-33 scale, weekly shooting, my level would only go from say 31 down to 24, approx. Fortnightly would be like 32 down to 18. Anyone who knows their TRT knows the significance of this.

According to the pubmed studies, researchers are completely aware of how the enanthate ester is resulting in fluctuating mood, sexual performance, and energy levels, and they are looking at undec as a sollution. Results in proving undec as the answer have been very good!

My logic and experience tells me this:
The exogenous testosterone is what controls all the other side effects going on with our TRT symptoms. Once u keep the test level completely stable, then everything else becomes easier to manage (estro, dht, acne, etc).

The reason I post is that I haven't found anything to dent any holes in the theory of using undecanoate. I want some critical analysis.

I dare say I will be going onto undecanoate within a few weeks, and I'll be sure to let u all know how it goes!

[Weatherlite]

I'm not too sure on this one yet. No one can seem to get the half-life right...that or there is no consistency.

18-23 days http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/...tract/19/6/761

21-34 days depending on its type of oil base. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

and of course the 16.5-17 days listed on many roid pages.

I couldn't find any manufacturer data on it and no inserts anywhere to be found.

[Axl]

I have had some T undecanoate shots in my past for TRT reasons (not for AAS). If I remember it right, the product was called Deca Durabolin. I can only tell you that I am absolutely not a fan of it: it made me sicker than I was before.
They are not used by most endo's because they have some nasty side effects. Plus: if anything goes wrong (e.g. nipple issues), there is no way to quickly stop the treatment and to take corrective measures (due to the long half life). I know that Nebido has come on the market in Europe. I believe it's there for commercial reasons only;most men don't like shots, reducing the number of shots is a marketing trick, but it's not the best thing you can do for maintaining normal levels...In fact you will only create bigger "roller coaster rides"... More info on Nebido:
http://www.get-back-on-track.com/en/...ukte/index.php

Martin on the old Andropause UK forum has written down a report of his experiences with Nebido....Bottom line was not positive....

[coz]

Originally Posted by Axl

I have had some T undecanoate shots in my past for TRT reasons (not for AAS). If I remember it right, the product was called Deca Durabolin. I can only tell you that I am absolutely not a fan of it: it made me sicker than I was before.
They are not used by most endo's because they have some nasty side effects. Plus: if anything goes wrong (e.g. nipple issues), there is no way to quickly stop the treatment and to take corrective measures (due to the long half life). I know that Nebido has come on the market in Europe. I believe it's there for commercial reasons only;most men don't like shots, reducing the number of shots is a marketing trick, but it's not the best thing you can do for maintaining normal levels...In fact you will only create bigger "roller coaster rides"... More info on Nebido:
http://www.get-back-on-track.com/en/...ukte/index.php

Martin on the old Andropause UK forum has written down a report of his experiences with Nebido....Bottom line was not positive....

Deca is completely different substance & has no place in TRT.. It is actually nandrolone undecanoate - i think you may be confusing the ester.. rather than the active substance

[mranak]

Originally Posted by coz

Deca is completely different substance & has no place in TRT.. It is actually nandrolone undecanoate - i think you may be confusing the ester.. rather than the active substance

Actually, deca is nandrolone decanoate. The nickname of 'deca' is a short form of the ester rather than the hormome, which is a really stupid nickname when you consider that you can have a such thing as testosterone decanoate.

Stez: Don't forget that the absorption of these testosterone esters is not linear. For example, even if you know that the half like is x number of days, you cann't assume that after x/2 is the quarter-life.

[Stez]

Thanks for your responses guys.

Yes, the trickiest part of undec is going to be getting the dosing right, but once that is accomplished I think it will be smooth sailing. Test is test, undec will give stable levels

And yeah, I'm not talking about nandrolone (deca)

I'm willing to give undecanoate a try tho...im confident it will be positive.

[Stez]

Oh and as for the "roller-coaster" rides, that's because they are trying to give u a shot like every few months. One of the pubmed studies was 1000mg every 6 weeks!

Other studies are trying to reduce it to once every 12 weeks!!!!

REDICULOUS!!!

Once a week is gonna be stable as.

[love_en]

Of course men do not like shots every two weeks. If you get stuck in the ass by someone with poor technique, that will be painful for a while. I inject myself once a week and it is not a bother. I have heard about Nebido, I cannot imagine a 1000mg injection being comfortable. The story I hear is that it is also expensive. Over $100 for an ampule. I love how Europe does many things, but this is one area where they screwed up. Not to mention that 250mg injection of enanthate every other week. Their "tradition" gets in the way of good medicine.

[Stez]

I have no interest in the way these shithead doctors prescribe their medicines, but I do have an interest in the medicines themselves and how I can use them more effectively to treat my problems. Yes they screwed up with their dosings, but that doesnt mean I can't use the same ester and do things my own way (weekly shot).

Price is not a concern, I pay about a buck a gram for test of any ester.

[Weatherlite]

I think part of the concern is what if something goes wrong and you have to stop TRT...maybe polycythemia (sp?), allergic reaction to the ester or the oil base, severe gyno or E3 problems, etc. With a shorter ester you could stop and have most of it out in two weeks. TU's half-life is so long that you would probably have to wait for at least 2-3 months after you've stopped to reach the same levels at the 2 week mark of stopping test Cyp.

I think this may be the way to go for some guys. However, I would want to know how I react to it before I made it my sole TRT. Can't remember your history so I may be speaking stupidly. Anyway, I'd do regular TRT for a while to see how my body reacted to it. Then, once I'm comfortable with everything I'd try a single dose and then switch back to Cyp (or Enth) the next week and watch for any unusual symptoms to appear. If all seemed good over two weeks I'd give it a shot BUT I'd also have Nolva and Arimidex on hand in case of gyno or high E2. Speaking of which, I'd also arrange to have labs done every couple of weeks to monitor things.

Let us know how it goes Guinea Pig!

[pmgamer18]

I have talked to men on Nebido and it does not work or last as long as they claim. Men in the UK are having one hell of a time getting good TRT. You can go here and talk to men that are on Nebido. This is the old link you can go there and do a search on Nebido and read there posts.
http://www.globalandropause.com/forum/disc6_frm.htm
This is there new site you can post and ask about how they feel about Nebido.
http://www.andropause.org.uk/newforu...m_frameset.htm

[stat1951]

Originally Posted by Axl

I know that Nebido has come on the market in Europe. I believe it's there for commercial reasons only;most men don't like shots, reducing the number of shots is a marketing trick, but it's not the best thing you can do for maintaining normal levels...In fact you will only create bigger "roller coaster rides"... More info on Nebido:
http://www.get-back-on-track.com/en/...ukte/index.php

Martin on the old Andropause UK forum has written down a report of his experiences with Nebido....Bottom line was not positive....

This has been the info that I have been getting back on Nebido also. Some older individuals who have been on both compared it to the same roller-coaster effect that they used to get back with 400 mg Test Cyp done once a month.

I think that it's possibly one of those things that sounds better than it ends up being...

But would be willing to look at any type of actual user feedback and long-term studies (preferably by a neutral party rather than a manufacture).

Larry

[stat1951]

Originally Posted by pmgamer18

I have talked to men on Nebido and it does not work or last as long as they claim. Men in the UK are having one hell of a time getting good TRT. You can go here and talk to men that are on Nebido. This is the old link you can go there and do a search on Nebido and read there posts.
http://www.globalandropause.com/forum/disc6_frm.htm
This is there new site you can post and ask about how they feel about Nebido.
http://www.andropause.org.uk/newforu...m_frameset.htm

That's true, Phil.

I forgot about the forum. Both the older one (to search for archived posts) and the newer one (to ask current users how they feel on this "new" product) are both very good resources....

Larry

[Stez]

I couldn't find threads on those sites, but

I will be shooting EVERY WEEEK. I have no interest in trying to shoot once every 6 weeks or 2 months or whatever they're trying to do.

[love_en]

If you are going to inject 100mg/week, I would imagine very stable levels after a few weeks. A shot every 2 months is crazy. BTW is the test undecanoate a DIY product or did you come across some Nebido ampules?