Update on HCG dose change.

[pmgamer18]

I have lost over 40 lbs and gained muscle and it shows on my blood work that the dose of HCG 500 IU's 3 times a week is to high and causing DHT and E2 problems.
The TMG is keeping my Total E in check not up in the 400's anymore. My test on 9/27/05 showed my E2 to be 21 and my Totals E to be 60 range 29 to 127. But my DHT went way up from 61 on my last test on 5/18/05 to 1,687 range 36 to 573 pg/mL.

So to be sure it was not a lab error we redid the test on 10/18/05. This is the result.
DHEA-SO4 = 315 range 80 to 560 I take this to keep in up.
http://www.myvitanet.com/dhea260capph.html
Estradiol = 48.5 to dam high.
Total E 135 up but not in the 400's TMG works.
http://www.myvitanet.com/tmgtr75120ca.html
Total T= 1127 range for a young man 262 to 1593 ng/dL.
Free T = 36.7 range for a young man 8.8 to 27 pg/mL
PSA = 0.83 range 0 to 400 ng/mL
INSULIN-LIKE GR FAC 1 = 138 range 71 to 290 ng/mL. I wanted IGF-1 test done for GH but the Dr. did this one and said my GH is good.
DHT = 2204.9 range 36 to 573 WTF is with this Dr. feels my body is changing from the weight loss and working out building muscle. And I don't need the 500 IU's of HCG 3 times a week so he cut the dose to 250 IU's 3 times a week for 2 weeks then if I feel ok to just do 250 the 5th and 6th day after my T shot so that would be 2 times a week.

My E2 has got out of control now I am taking one 120 mg. of Indolplex/DIM with TMG and 1/4 of an Arimidex everyday and still my E2 is to high.

So I start the lower dose now and we will see if I do good on this I feel I will.
Phil

[Axl]

hi Phil,
Thanks for the update. It has been said before on this forum: it looks like you have had too much HCG and T. You're trying to compensate the negative (overdosage)effects with other drugs like TMG and Arimidex, etc... IMO, you will never find a good balance if you use that much.

Your total T seems too high too... this amount of total T results in high E2 and high DHT; that's a natural consequence.

If I were you, I would indeed lower the HCG like you mentioned. Try to cut back a bit on the T as well. I would aim to 800 ng/dl (as long as you feel good at this level). By cutting back the T shots and the HCG, you will lower the total amount of androgens in your body. This will result in lower E2 and DHT. Once you have found a good level around 800 ng/dl, with levels of E2 and DHT that are only slightly off, you can start to fine-tune again with Adex or TMG, or HCG dosages.

[pmgamer18]

I did do a 2 week trial of less HCG did 300 IU's 3 times a week and my E2 And Total E came down and T levels stayed up. Don't for get my labs range is much different then yours. My labs range for Total T is up to 1593 so my levels at 1127 are not to high just right. But yes the high dose of HCG is driving up my E2 and Total E to an unmenageable levels. I feel my Dr. has this down now but it took sometime to show this on blood tests. I still feel dam good and hope it stays that way.

[stat1951]

Originally Posted by pmgamer18

I did do a 2 week trial of less HCG did 300 IU's 3 times a week and my E2 And Total E came down and T levels stayed up. Don't for get my labs range is much different then yours. My labs range for Total T is up to 1593 so my levels at 1127 are not to high just right. But yes the high dose of HCG is driving up my E2 and Total E to an unmenageable levels. I feel my Dr. has this down now but it took sometime to show this on blood tests. I still feel dam good and hope it stays that way.

Phil,

Which Lab does your doctor use? I find it amazing that any Lab would have a range of that level. 262 to 1593 ng/dL??? I know that Labs differ, but I have never seen a Lab with anything approaching those numbers. I think that around 1200 was the highest I've ever seen on a Lab's reference range.

Personally I think that your Total T and Free T levels are too high and that those are also contributing to pushing your E2 and Total E levels, and the combo that you're taking (150mg Test Cyp weekly combined with 500 IU HcG 3 times weekly) has obviously contributed to both the levels of Ts and the levels of Es and DHT.

Two ways to look at it I guess.

Number one, if you're feeling damn good, then why sweat it. Or, number two, there might still be future concerns from levels those high if steps not taken to achieve some hormonal balance.

Larry

[Vforcer2]

Phil,
I recently read an article in the Life Extention magazine that Progesterone cream at night is a great natural DHT antagonist. My compounding pharmacist confirmed it as well.

[stat1951]

Originally Posted by Vforcer2

Phil,
I recently read an article in the Life Extention magazine that Progesterone cream at night is a great natural DHT antagonist. My compounding pharmacist confirmed it as well.

Phil,

Might want to do a search of progesterone on previous posts on this forum. If my memory serves me correctly, SWALE had some significant concerns with utlizing it in any manner in male TRT protocols due to estrogen problems generally developing or something like that (maybe one of the other members recall those discussions???).

I have read some good articles concerning Beta-Sitosterol and nettles root extract being good in controlling DHT levels. I use both and have good DHT numbers - but can't specifically say that it's from either one or both of these!



I think that reducing your T dosage slightly and definitely reducing your HcG doses would still leave you feeling great and eliminate quite a bit of your estrogen and DHT elevations.

But then that's just my opinion....

Larry

[pmgamer18]

Originally Posted by stat1951

Phil,

Which Lab does your doctor use? I find it amazing that any Lab would have a range of that level. 262 to 1593 ng/dL??? I know that Labs differ, but I have never seen a Lab with anything approaching those numbers. I think that around 1200 was the highest I've ever seen on a Lab's reference range.

Personally I think that your Total T and Free T levels are too high and that those are also contributing to pushing your E2 and Total E levels, and the combo that you're taking (150mg Test Cyp weekly combined with 500 IU HcG 3 times weekly) has obviously contributed to both the levels of Ts and the levels of Es and DHT.

Two ways to look at it I guess.

Number one, if you're feeling damn good, then why sweat it. Or, number two, there might still be future concerns from levels those high if steps not taken to achieve some hormonal balance.

Larry

My Dr. uses Biotech at www.biotechclinical.com
I had a shot yesterday and last night I got dam sick from the high E2 had to take a one mg. Arimidex to get past the dam panic attacks.

[stat1951]

Originally Posted by pmgamer18

My Dr. uses Biotech at www.biotechclinical.com
I had a shot yesterday and last night I got dam sick from the high E2 had to take a one mg. Arimidex to get past the dam panic attacks.

Phil,

Checked that site and it goes nowhere. You have to have a User Name and Password to enter it. Doesn't even have a link to an e-mail address for them. Or a corporate phone number or anything. Most Labs plaster their contact info all over the place.

Maybe ask your doc to have your levels checked again and to use another Lab - just for comparison purposes?

Just a thought.

Hang in there bro'!

Larry

[stat1951]

Originally Posted by pmgamer18

My Dr. uses Biotech at www.biotechclinical.com
I had a shot yesterday and last night I got dam sick from the high E2 had to take a one mg. Arimidex to get past the dam panic attacks.

Phil,

Did you see this posting over at H2?

This was the original posting:

My doctor had me doing 1cc (1000iu) every other day. At first I felt GREAT.
No more anxiety, great libido, feeling of well being. That only lasted
about 5 days then I started to have major anxiety, I think my E went too
high. Thinking about trying 100iu every day.

This guy was (I believe) taking HcG as a sole TRT protocol. Note that his doctor had him doing roughly 3500 IU of HcG a week.

This was SWALE's reply:

Yes, it doesn't look like much, but HCG is waaaaay more powerful than
previously thought. As I said, 100IU is a good initial dose, see how it works
for YOU.

Regards,
Dr. John Crisler, DO

Note that SWALE's recommendation brings that down to 700 IU of HcG a week. With no other TRT administered.

I mention that Phil as you are doing 1500 IU of HcG at your regimen of 500 IU of Hcg three times a week. Even if you cut that in half, doing three times a week still puts you at 750 IU. Plus doing the 150 mg of Test Cyp on top of that. Why not drop back to SWALE's recommended levels - and do the HcG on Day 5 and Day 6 as recommended - and maybe even dropping your Test Cyp back to 100mg and simply see what happens?

I mean it ain't like your levels of T are going to go sub normal on those doses - and you might find that SWALE's recommendation is right on the money and that your E levels are very controllable - and that you still feel great.

Larry

P.S. Have you had your cortisol levels checked recently? Hypercortisolism can definitely create anxiety problems that come and go as the cortisol secretion surges so panic attacks are seemed to be occurring. Check the Labs that SWALE recommends and note that he specifically recommends cortisol testing. And if your doctor is doing it but doing via blood testing then he's waasting his time and your money as serum tests for cortisol levels aer grossly inaccurate due to the cyclical nature of cortisol secretion. The proper test to check cortisol levels is the "24-hr UFC - Urinary Free Cortisol" test....

[wildfox]

I'm "the guy" that Larry is referring too. I have cancelled future appointments with the old doctor. I've taken myself down to 100iu hCG QD, and have an appointment to see Dr. Crisler in 2 weeks.

Remind me in a few days and I'll let you know if things improve.

WF

[kidsxx5]

"My doctor had me doing 1cc (1000iu) every other day. At first I felt GREAT.
No more anxiety, great libido, feeling of well being. That only lasted
about 5 days then I started to have major anxiety, I think my E went too
high. Thinking about trying 100iu every day."

Actually, that was me in reply to wildfox. I am only doing HCG for TRT along with .5mg Arimidex Mon/Wed/Fri. Even with that I felt that my E went way to high by the way I was feeling. That's just a guess on my part but something was out of line. My doc says this is the amount he uses, I don't know how he can tolerate that much HCG. Maybe he will have some insight on this at my next appointment.

[wildfox]

When did you add the Arimidex? My doctor said nothing of anti-estrogens, and that I should only call him if I developed "nipple issues." Well, my nips have been just fine, but the hotflashes and pms were sure annoying.

WF

[kidsxx5]

Been on that for about 6 months. Have been getting it from a compounding pharmacy so it's what they put together, not the brand stuff. My last lab showed E still too high so I am not convinced this is any good and I am going to move my prescription to one local and the the brand version.

I didn't have nipple issues but the lab showed it was very high so I would say the nipple test is not a good indication (might be for some people but not everyone).

Wildfox, when did you start the 100iu a day? I am starting today so keep me posted on how you are doing and I will do the same. GOOD LUCK!

Good for you getting to see Dr. Crisler. I would too if he weren't 1500 miles away.

[stat1951]

Originally Posted by kidsxx5

Good for you getting to see Dr. Crisler. I would too if he weren't 1500 miles away.

Any chance of finding a local doctor who will work with Dr. Crisler on a "consultation basis" (your local doctor is still the "physician of record" and orders your blood work, Labs, writes prescriptions, etc. while Dr. C is simply a consulting doctor - perfectly legal, doctors at Mayo Clinic, Cleveland Clininc, etc., etc. to it with out of state doctors all the time)?

[pmgamer18]

Larry I did read it and the basing Dr. John took WTF is wrong with people. I never talk to people like that I try to talk to them like we were face to face. I took have taken a lot of Arimidex in the last week to keep my E2 down and feel you are right the HCG is to dam high. I am doing a shot in the morning and it will be 250 IU's I don't know what is worst low T or high
E2.