Using HCG for TRT and its not working

[fenstermaker]

My Dr has tried using HCG only for my TRT and it took about 6 months but I am back down to 197 test on my last lab. I have been taking large doses of HCG three times a week, 10000 bottle diluted with 3.3 ml and each shot was .5 ml. I just wanted to share with the rest of you that this did not work for me and I am going to have to go back on Test shots to get my levels back up. I just hope that HCG will still work for my testicles not to shrink.........

[hardasnails1973]

Originally Posted by fenstermaker

My Dr has tried using HCG only for my TRT and it took about 6 months but I am back down to 197 test on my last lab. I have been taking large doses of HCG three times a week, 10000 bottle diluted with 3.3 ml and each shot was .5 ml. I just wanted to share with the rest of you that this did not work for me and I am going to have to go back on Test shots to get my levels back up. I just hope that HCG will still work for my testicles not to shrink.........

You should have done it in small increment increases starteds with 200 ius daily after 2 weeks monitor TT/e2 and if TT was increasing and e2 was staying in check increase it to 250 ius a day and when the cross over of TT/e2 started to increase then add in AI to off set it. untill you hit your target range of 800-900 TT with e2 of 20-30. What was shbg, See this in my point you wasted a a whole 6 months when simple Testosterone injection would have been easy root and adding in hcg after 4-6 weeks when e2 was stablized.. Also investgate adrenal/thyroid imbalances as well plus pituitary problesm through CAT SCAN. You dropped to 197 how the fuck did you do that and how often did you get blood work ?

[fenstermaker]

First off let me give you the whole story.......I am post graves radiation so I have no thyroid function. I have switched from synthroid to Armour.....I am at 90 x 2 in the am and 90 x1 at noon.

I have been getting my blood work monthly for the last year. Last Aug i told my primary care that I did not feel good even though my TSH and T4 levels were in range. So at that time my labs were run and my Test was at 175. He started me on androgel and for the first three months I did not get above 200 on my labs. So as I researched more I came across this site and started learning more. I found Dr Crisler and drove to Mich for an appt. Dr. C kept me on a stronger dose of androgel but to no avail, and we then started doing Test Cyp shots in Jan. @ 200 once a week. At that time my gonads were about the size of a rasin so we started Dr C protocal for HCG to help with the issue and it worked. As i continued to keep learning more, I visited more Dr's to keep getting more information. I heard from one Dr that he treated with HCG only to get the body to produce its own Test and that interested me since we did not even try to do that in my case form the beginning. Since I was seeing Dr C, I asked him about this other type of treatment to get his opinion, and when I did, Dr C, quickly dismissed me from his practice and would not see me anymore. Not too sure why, but none the less, I decided to go back to this new Dr and hear him out. the New Dr instructed me to stop Test shots and start a heavy dose of HCG. So My labs at this time were Test 980 and my Estradiol was in the 43 range. So he also started me on Arimidex 1mg daily. So since then my levels started dropping, the next month my labs came back at 780 test and E at 18, and then most recently my labs last week are at 200 for test and 4 for E.

So I guess this Dr did not know what he is talking about. I asked him what we are going to do and he has instructed me to change brands of HCG and try a new lab in two weeks. I really don't think this is going to work and I think I am going to get back on Test and use the HCG in lower doses to keep my nads from shrinking too much. I am 39 and have my family and do not plan on having kids, but I don't want to feel like crap.

I guess I am on my own now......My primary Dr from the beginning will help me with running labs and prescribing Test, but has told me that he does not know enough about the HCG to prescribe it, and he would help any way he can.

Just wanted to share some of my experience for the rest of you to learn from and help in your quest any way I can.

Thanks for any input

[jawbone]

HCG as primary HRT is utilized by a well known clinic called Cenegenics. I was told that they can go as high as 7000 IU per wk before doing harm. While it is true with time the HCG desensitizes the testicles to produce T, I have not read that this would happen in 6 mos at your dose. I guess anything is possible. I do not think that one can correlate testicular size with the ability to produce T. Therefore, even if the HCG is not getting the testicles to produce T in sufficient amounts, it still could, at a lower dose, keep them from atrophy.

[fenstermaker]

Thanks, I would agree about the atrophy, since being on HCG full time my size has been normal. But I think that I just am not making Test on my own. I think the first lab or two was reading some left over Test Cyp that I was injecting prior.

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by fenstermaker

First off let me give you the whole story.......I am post graves radiation so I have no thyroid function. I have switched from synthroid to Armour.....I am at 90 x 2 in the am and 90 x1 at noon.

I have been getting my blood work monthly for the last year. Last Aug i told my primary care that I did not feel good even though my TSH and T4 levels were in range. So at that time my labs were run and my Test was at 175. He started me on androgel and for the first three months I did not get above 200 on my labs. So as I researched more I came across this site and started learning more. I found Dr Crisler and drove to Mich for an appt. Dr. C kept me on a stronger dose of androgel but to no avail, and we then started doing Test Cyp shots in Jan. @ 200 once a week. At that time my gonads were about the size of a rasin so we started Dr C protocal for HCG to help with the issue and it worked. As i continued to keep learning more, I visited more Dr's to keep getting more information. I heard from one Dr that he treated with HCG only to get the body to produce its own Test and that interested me since we did not even try to do that in my case form the beginning. Since I was seeing Dr C, I asked him about this other type of treatment to get his opinion, and when I did, Dr C, quickly dismissed me from his practice and would not see me anymore. Not too sure why, but none the less, I decided to go back to this new Dr and hear him out. the New Dr instructed me to stop Test shots and start a heavy dose of HCG. So My labs at this time were Test 980 and my Estradiol was in the 43 range. So he also started me on Arimidex 1mg daily. So since then my levels started dropping, the next month my labs came back at 780 test and E at 18, and then most recently my labs last week are at 200 for test and 4 for E.

So I guess this Dr did not know what he is talking about. I asked him what we are going to do and he has instructed me to change brands of HCG and try a new lab in two weeks. I really don't think this is going to work and I think I am going to get back on Test and use the HCG in lower doses to keep my nads from shrinking too much. I am 39 and have my family and do not plan on having kids, but I don't want to feel like crap.

I guess I am on my own now......My primary Dr from the beginning will help me with running labs and prescribing Test, but has told me that he does not know enough about the HCG to prescribe it, and he would help any way he can.

Just wanted to share some of my experience for the rest of you to learn from and help in your quest any way I can.

Thanks for any input

Well, your testis were able to produce some T, lets hope you did not fried them with excessive dose of HCG.
The 200mg/week of testosterone was probably to excessiwe also.
You may want to post all recent blood tests. Since you have many of them it would help organizing them for ease of study.
Put item units range.
At the moment you are on six grains of Armour and you have split your dose AM/noon,
consider splitting 3 ways.
Post your
FreeT3
FreeT4
T3
T4
SHBG
Possibly you may benefit from additional T4

I could use your SHBG and calculate your preliminary Depo-Testosterone dose.
It would be good to do freequent shots.
I do mine (T & hcg) both shots on same day, E3D schedule, but my testicles are not working.
With your working testicles E2D schedule would be better.
The goal of T injections is to get FreeT~250
while reading this chart, post #41
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-...april13-2.html

Also watch FreeT and BAT from tests listed below.
Best is to test at least for T and E at Quest, these tests
60 Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X) http://cas2.questdiagnostics.com/scr...&tmradio=title
61 /------------------------------------ Estradiol, Free (Males (Adult): < or = 0.45 pg/mL )
62 /------------------------------------ Estradiol (Males (Adult): < or = 29 pg/mL)
63 Estrogens, Fractionated, LC/MS/MS (36742X) http://cas2.questdiagnostics.com/scr...&tmradio=title
64 /------------------------------------ 968-1**Estrone, LC/MS/MS
65 /------------------------------------ 968-2**Estradiol, Ultrasensitive, LC/MS/MS
66 /------------------------------------ 968-3**Estriol
67 Estrogen, Total, Serum (439X)
68 Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS) http://cas2.questdiagnostics.com/scr...&tmradio=title
69 /------------------------------------ Testosterone Total (included in T panel)
70 /------------------------------------ Testosterone Free(included in T panel)
71 /------------------------------------ Testosterone Bioavailable(included in T panel)
72 /------------------------------------ SHBG(included in T panel)
73 /------------------------------------ Albumin, serum(included in T panel)
74 Dihydrotestosterone, Free, Serum (36168X) Dihydrotestosterone ng/dL (ADULT MALES: 25-75 )
75 /------------------------------------ DIHYDROTESTOSTERONE, FREE (DHT, Free pg/mL ADULT MALES: 1.00-6.20 )

[jawbone]

JanSZ,
It sounds like with your frequency of inj you are doing T subQ?

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by jawbone

JanSZ,
It sounds like with your frequency of inj you are doing T subQ?

Sorry I should have added:

SubQ shots around navel using the smallest available needle for both T&hcg shots.
(Any soreness lasts about 10 min)

http://hocks.com/Merchant2/merchant....Category_Code=
BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b Price: $25.95

or

http://hocks.com/Merchant2/merchant....Category_Code=
Easy Touch U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16 inch Short Needle 100/Box Sale Price: $13.99

[cpeil2]

Originally Posted by fenstermaker

First off let me give you the whole story.......I am post graves radiation so I have no thyroid function. I have switched from synthroid to Armour.....I am at 90 x 2 in the am and 90 x1 at noon.

I have been getting my blood work monthly for the last year. Last Aug i told my primary care that I did not feel good even though my TSH and T4 levels were in range. So at that time my labs were run and my Test was at 175. He started me on androgel and for the first three months I did not get above 200 on my labs. So as I researched more I came across this site and started learning more. I found Dr Crisler and drove to Mich for an appt. Dr. C kept me on a stronger dose of androgel but to no avail, and we then started doing Test Cyp shots in Jan. @ 200 once a week. At that time my gonads were about the size of a rasin so we started Dr C protocal for HCG to help with the issue and it worked. As i continued to keep learning more, I visited more Dr's to keep getting more information. I heard from one Dr that he treated with HCG only to get the body to produce its own Test and that interested me since we did not even try to do that in my case form the beginning. Since I was seeing Dr C, I asked him about this other type of treatment to get his opinion, and when I did, Dr C, quickly dismissed me from his practice and would not see me anymore. Not too sure why, but none the less, I decided to go back to this new Dr and hear him out. the New Dr instructed me to stop Test shots and start a heavy dose of HCG. So My labs at this time were Test 980 and my Estradiol was in the 43 range. So he also started me on Arimidex 1mg daily. So since then my levels started dropping, the next month my labs came back at 780 test and E at 18, and then most recently my labs last week are at 200 for test and 4 for E.

So I guess this Dr did not know what he is talking about. I asked him what we are going to do and he has instructed me to change brands of HCG and try a new lab in two weeks. I really don't think this is going to work and I think I am going to get back on Test and use the HCG in lower doses to keep my nads from shrinking too much. I am 39 and have my family and do not plan on having kids, but I don't want to feel like crap.

I guess I am on my own now......My primary Dr from the beginning will help me with running labs and prescribing Test, but has told me that he does not know enough about the HCG to prescribe it, and he would help any way he can.

Just wanted to share some of my experience for the rest of you to learn from and help in your quest any way I can.

Thanks for any input

hCG as monotherapy generally isn't a good option for men with a baseline level as low as yours. Since a transdermal wasn't effective, you need T shots--end of story.

[fenstermaker]

My Test shots were Test Cyp 200 MG/ML IM with a harpoon of 22g 1.5" long........but it is the only time I was able to get my Test levels up. I am looking for my past labs to post. I was injecting 1x a week @ 1ml so that would be 200Mg per week. I have added 1 iu of HGH recently and have been really working out hard for the last year. I am 6' 3" down to 234lbs from 255lbs last Aug. I was really feeling great when my test was up in the 900 range. I will post my labs soon.

[cpeil2]

Originally Posted by fenstermaker

My Test shots were Test Cyp 200 MG/ML IM with a harpoon of 22g 1.5" long........but it is the only time I was able to get my Test levels up. I am looking for my past labs to post. I was injecting 1x a week @ 1ml so that would be 200Mg per week. I have added 1 iu of HGH recently and have been really working out hard for the last year. I am 6' 3" down to 234lbs from 255lbs last Aug. I was really feeling great when my test was up in the 900 range. I will post my labs soon.

You could use a finer needle.

[MacDonnell]

Originally Posted by fenstermaker

My Test shots were Test Cyp 200 MG/ML IM with a harpoon of 22g 1.5" long........but it is the only time I was able to get my Test levels up. I am looking for my past labs to post. I was injecting 1x a week @ 1ml so that would be 200Mg per week. I have added 1 iu of HGH recently and have been really working out hard for the last year. I am 6' 3" down to 234lbs from 255lbs last Aug. I was really feeling great when my test was up in the 900 range. I will post my labs soon.

I'm surprised he had you on such a high dose. Usu. they start you off on 1/2 cc of the 200 mg/ml test cyp. For most guys 100 - 125/ week works just fine. Anyway, just rambling. Hope you feel better. Have you thought of going back to Dr. John with your tail between your legs? It seems that you were making good progress with him. He's a reasonable guy - Perhaps you could approach him and discuss?

[fenstermaker]

No, I don't think I would want to go back to some one that would dismiss me so sudden for no reason. I think I must have threatened his ego or something, I was just asking about this type of therapy, and he was very nasty with me by email and wouldn't even call me to discuss.

Anyway, I will probably go back to his program since it was working, I just won't have anyone monitoring except me and my primary care Dr. I will keep researching here and other sites to try adn management this on my own.

Thanks again for all your input and help, I will be reading it all

[cpeil2]

Originally Posted by fenstermaker

No, I don't think I would want to go back to some one that would dismiss me so sudden for no reason. I think I must have threatened his ego or something, I was just asking about this type of therapy, and he was very nasty with me by email and wouldn't even call me to discuss.

Anyway, I will probably go back to his program since it was working, I just won't have anyone monitoring except me and my primary care Dr. I will keep researching here and other sites to try adn management this on my own.

Thanks again for all your input and help, I will be reading it all

I remember this flap now. I know Dr. C and hold him in high regard. I suspect your error was not that you got a second opinion, but that you publicly questioned the wisdom of his treatment regimen on AM before you discussed it with him privately. It is true that another doctor might have handled it differently, but good manners never hurt.

[fenstermaker]

No you have it remembered wrong. I had several email discussions and asked Dr C to call me to discuss several times, prior to anything being discuss publically......He just turned his back on me. Regardless, this thread has nothing to do with Dr C and his practice, he obviously knows this field of medicine, I am going to continue my own search for balance. And yes I will use knowledge gained from Dr C, I feel we were on the right track. At the time I wanted answers to the fact that we did not try and re-start my own production with out the use of Test. Hindsight is easy to place judgement, but I feel I will continue by adding Test back into my treatment. Continue to use HCG at lower doses, continue to monitor monthly with lab work, and continue to research as much as I can for myself.