Men's Health Forum: This is a discussion on Vacation From TRT routine within the Anabolic Steroids forums, part of the extensive steroid information at MESO-Rx; I've been reading with interest several threads where forum members have decided to ditch their present TRT routine for various ...
I've been reading with interest several threads where forum members have decided to ditch their present TRT routine for various reasons. Several factors lead me to decide to experiment droping my TRT routine (Androgel (20g / day). Here are the factors influencing my decision - in no particular order of priority.
flu-like symptoms - muscle and joint aches. Other factors could have influenced this.
Very high DHT levels
Rasin Nuts - hey, it just doesn't feel right when nothin's swinging.
Shooting blanks - little to no ejaculate with sex. (makes clean up a breeze, though)
Very little sex drive - 'nuff said
Itchy nipples - Doc gave me a script for Nolva. Test showed high side of normal range on E2 levels.
WTF? - started second guessing WTF I was doing if the negatives were out-weighing the positives.
So, I just went cold turkey on the T replacement and kept doing the Nolva.
I was surprised by the results 15 days later:
No more flu-like symptoms
At the gym - slight decrease in the weight I can handle. Just about back to where I was though. Seems a little harder to get a pump, though. Lost 2 1/2 pounds, but that could be because of the cardio I've added in the last 2 weeks. Good aggression/energy throughout the routine.
Swinging again - nuts back to pre-TRT size (suprised that it happened that quick)
Libido - For the first time in almost a year I felt that urgent sensation of "I gotta take care of this NOW or I'm gonna bust!"
Fully loaded - When that urgent sensation got attention, I dropped one like I was back in high school. Cool. (Felt really good, too!)
Conjecture (rather than conclusion). A combination of gels and Nolva was driving my T and DHT - and maybe other things - out of range and making me uncomfortable. (I wonder how the guys doing AAS deal with all this...especially considering doses way more that what TRT guys use.)
Now, to try a different routine: a switch from gels to a IM. Not particularly interested in having more blood work at this point. I'm debating whether or not to taper off the Nolva for this part of the experiement.
I expect some sides to return. Here's what I'm looking for though:
Control DHT levels
Lowered E2
No muscle, joint aches.
Closing thought: IMHO, The mind plays huge role with how we experience our bodies. If work / home / spiritual life are in the toilet, the rest of it...relationships, energy, libido attitude are gonna follow closely behind. So, while we are balancing our T and E, it may pay handsomely to look for opportunities to bring balance to things outside of our bodies as well.
I think your program looks pretty insane. Your dose of androgel is way too high, you need HCG to keep your boys hanging, and you may have needed arimidex to control your E2. The right doctor would have resolved these issues for you.
I hear you. I was doing things like arimidex and hcg and being 'natural' far outweighs any trt program if you can somehow achieve in range levels. I feel way better now on my nolva taper than I ever did on any trt or hrt or hcg.
I just shake my head when I see posts from new users all excited thinking that getting on hrt will be the answer to all their problems. I could only see it if the testicles were not working, but if there is any way of getting natural test production that is far preferable to trt. For those with testicle problems, trt is a necessary thing to feel ok. But natural bottom of the range test is still preferable to going on trt in my opinion.
Sorry you had so many problems but glad you took the time to share your thoughts and feels so well.
The only caveat I would like to say is that being on a SERM even by itself is not realy taking a vacation from TRT per se. The real test is after you drop the Nolva and the gels etc is what you feel like 4-8 weeks later. It seems that you might be happier without the TRT in your life.
I think your program looks pretty insane. Your dose of androgel is way too high, you need HCG to keep your boys hanging, and you may have needed arimidex to control your E2. The right doctor would have resolved these issues for you.
Thanks for catching my mistake... 20 g androgel would be insane, in my case anyway. The correct dose was 10g. Thanks!
I hear you. I was doing things like arimidex and hcg and being 'natural' far outweighs any trt program if you can somehow achieve in range levels. I feel way better now on my nolva taper than I ever did on any trt or hrt or hcg.
I just shake my head when I see posts from new users all excited thinking that getting on hrt will be the answer to all their problems. I could only see it if the testicles were not working, but if there is any way of getting natural test production that is far preferable to trt. For those with testicle problems, trt is a necessary thing to feel ok. But natural bottom of the range test is still preferable to going on trt in my opinion.
Oh man this is a great post.
Had a cop friend go on TRT at just the age of 36 form huge abuse of gear.
He was bummed out and said he noticed nothing.
I suggested a long time ago to try the recovery PCT approach but he wanted to be on TRT.
He got what he asked for and didnt like it.
Sometimes we need to watch out what we ask for as we just might get it.
I've been reading with interest several threads where forum members have decided to ditch their present TRT routine for various reasons. Several factors lead me to decide to experiment droping my TRT routine (Androgel (20g / day). Here are the factors influencing my decision - in no particular order of priority.
flu-like symptoms - muscle and joint aches. Other factors could have influenced this.
Very high DHT levels
Rasin Nuts - hey, it just doesn't feel right when nothin's swinging.
Shooting blanks - little to no ejaculate with sex. (makes clean up a breeze, though)
Very little sex drive - 'nuff said
Itchy nipples - Doc gave me a script for Nolva. Test showed high side of normal range on E2 levels.
WTF? - started second guessing WTF I was doing if the negatives were out-weighing the positives.
So, I just went cold turkey on the T replacement and kept doing the Nolva.
I was surprised by the results 15 days later:
No more flu-like symptoms
At the gym - slight decrease in the weight I can handle. Just about back to where I was though. Seems a little harder to get a pump, though. Lost 2 1/2 pounds, but that could be because of the cardio I've added in the last 2 weeks. Good aggression/energy throughout the routine.
Swinging again - nuts back to pre-TRT size (suprised that it happened that quick)
Libido - For the first time in almost a year I felt that urgent sensation of "I gotta take care of this NOW or I'm gonna bust!"
Fully loaded - When that urgent sensation got attention, I dropped one like I was back in high school. Cool. (Felt really good, too!)
Conjecture (rather than conclusion). A combination of gels and Nolva was driving my T and DHT - and maybe other things - out of range and making me uncomfortable. (I wonder how the guys doing AAS deal with all this...especially considering doses way more that what TRT guys use.)
Now, to try a different routine: a switch from gels to a IM. Not particularly interested in having more blood work at this point. I'm debating whether or not to taper off the Nolva for this part of the experiement.
I expect some sides to return. Here's what I'm looking for though:
Control DHT levels
Lowered E2
No muscle, joint aches.
Closing thought: IMHO, The mind plays huge role with how we experience our bodies. If work / home / spiritual life are in the toilet, the rest of it...relationships, energy, libido attitude are gonna follow closely behind. So, while we are balancing our T and E, it may pay handsomely to look for opportunities to bring balance to things outside of our bodies as well.
Cheers.
In my experience, the flu-like symtoms can come from a T dose that is too high. I was getting achey joints, flushing, hot flashes, night sweats, fluid retention and no libido on a weekly IM dose of 100 mg. of cyp. Suspecting it was a problem with E, I got bloodwork done. Surprise - E2 was at the extreme low end of the reference range, total E was midrange, but free T and Total T were over range. This was at day three afer the shot. I reduced my weekly dose to 80 mg. and I feel a whole lot better.
After being on TRT for over 22 yrs. anything that lowered my T levels like an infection or to much stress the first thing that I felt was sore joints and muscles. After a time of keeping my levels up and finding out most of my problmes were do to high E2 Estradiol started keep it down 3 yrs. ago and when the Gels come out I was put on them and as time went on my joints and mucles started hurting it got so bad that I had a lot of pain in my lower back and had a hard time walking. My Dr. felt I had Arthritis and put me on meds for it. Nothing worked I was house bound for a long time. I posted my problem at the H2 group and one of the guys got back to me saying he tryed the gels and this happened to him so he went back on shots but did them every week. I told my Dr. this and he put me on shots best thing I ever did my pain was gone in no time for some men the gels don't get the T to the joints and muscles and they start to brake down. I was on the shots for 3 months and then started on HCG Wow now after 22 yrs on TRT I feel the best I ever felt. For me the gels did me in.
__________________
Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see.
Phil
In my experience, the flu-like symtoms can come from a T dose that is too high. I was getting achey joints, flushing, hot flashes, night sweats, fluid retention and no libido on a weekly IM dose of 100 mg. of cyp. Suspecting it was a problem with E, I got bloodwork done. Surprise - E2 was at the extreme low end of the reference range, total E was midrange, but free T and Total T were over range. This was at day three afer the shot. I reduced my weekly dose to 80 mg. and I feel a whole lot better.
Visited my doc today and we agreed to switch to a weekly IM test cyp. dose @ 100mg. With the above mentioned goals in mind. So I will watch the sides and follow your suggestion and lower it if they return, then see what happens.
I know I made the mistake of thinking if I wasn't feeling well while on gels, I needed to up my dose. From your experience and other posts I belive the right thing to do is to consider lowering it, depending on where blood work is falling. More didn't necessarily mean better, in my case.
Doc and I agreed to stay with the Nolva for now since I tend toward the high side of normal on E2.
Phil, the hcg routine interest me a great deal; in particular the idea of supplementing a TRT routine with an occassional low dose. Especially if it will help keep the nuts functioning and not drive levels to a point where negative sides set in. Swale and others have talked about this idea. My doc seems willing to consider, but we agreed to change only one factor at a time in this experiment to see of TRT really suits me.
Vacation From TRT routine 
Cheers.
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