What shall I do? Try to lose the fat or try to gain muscle mass?

[dunbar]

These are my pics, which I already posted in another thread.

http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/2970/a1ys9.jpg

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/39/a2su2.jpg

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/3166/a3gn9.jpg

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/176/a4fw3.jpg

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/4050/a9xe0.jpg

http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/9929/a6yu9.jpg

As you can see I am skinny/fat without much muscle mass. + I have low T and from my own experience I can say that I don't gain very much muscle mass. I have been bulking in the past and I know how it works for me. It doesn't work at all. I have been given smart advice from people which told me stuff like: Hey, build muscle mass first and then go on a cut.
I thought it was a good idea but it wasn't. I gained a bit but also a lot of fat and later when I wanted to go on a cut I became scared of losing the hard earned muscle mass. It just didn't work. This is why I decided to focus on losing the damn fat. This is my goal and since I'm already damn skinny it doesn't even make a difference if I become a bit more skinny. I simply want to get rid of the fat on my thighs and ass. But others told me that going on a cut will totally ruin my metabolism because I will lose even more mass. But the only alternative would be going on a bulk and this will only make me fat. I want to get rid of the fat. I dont want to gain muscle mass and stay this way. Even if I could gain a bit I would still hate my thighs 'n ass. The fat on this area simply has to go. What would you suggest me? Currently I weigh around 166lbs and there's still so much fat left on my chest,stomach and lower body it's really scary. What will be left of me when I'm finished? I will be skinny as !#%$!!
But what is the other option? The other option is being fat and skinny. It doesn't change the fact that I am damn skinny and hardly have muscle mass. Wether my muscles are hidden by a thick layer of fat or not doesn't change anything.
Having a lot of fat and weighing more doesn't improve my health it only sounds "healthier" because people think that I have a normal weight. Without my fat I would have a pretty unhealthy sounding weight. Already now I am way too light for my size I should weigh around 170lbs without being fat. But I am already below 170lbs + I still have so much fat left.

[DaVinci2]

If you bulked, I don't think you bulked properly. What was your diet like (Calories, protien, fat and carbs)? What was your routine like? Gaining and losing weight is mostly diet. Learn to eat right and you'll learn to gain and lose what you like.

I say bulk. If you're 170 lbs, then eat at least 250 grams of protein a day (I'd probably make it 300 grams) eat a minimum of 90 grams of healthy fat (Some saturated) and make the rest up of whatever. You could low carb if you want. Get yourself on a PROPER routine, lift hard. Do cardio for 15 minutes after you lift, and give yourself a day rest between workouts. Or, don't bother with cardio and do HIIT on non-lifting days. Adding mass will make you look nicer IMO.

If you cut, then lower your maitenance calories by 10 to 15 percent but keep your protien and fat where they are. Keep lifting the same. It's all in your diet!!

Here's a great routine
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/sh...4&postcount=15

[greyowl]

Originally Posted by dunbar

As you can see I am skinny/fat without much muscle mass. + I have low T and from my own experience I can say that I don't gain very much muscle mass. I have been bulking in the past and I know how it works for me. It doesn't work at all. I have been given smart advice from people which told me stuff like: Hey, build muscle mass first and then go on a cut.
I thought it was a good idea but it wasn't. I gained a bit but also a lot of fat and later when I wanted to go on a cut I became scared of losing the hard earned muscle mass. It just didn't work. This is why I decided to focus on losing the damn fat. This is my goal and since I'm already damn skinny it doesn't even make a difference if I become a bit more skinny. I simply want to get rid of the fat on my thighs and ass. But others told me that going on a cut will totally ruin my metabolism because I will lose even more mass. But the only alternative would be going on a bulk and this will only make me fat. I want to get rid of the fat. I dont want to gain muscle mass and stay this way. Even if I could gain a bit I would still hate my thighs 'n ass. The fat on this area simply has to go. What would you suggest me? Currently I weigh around 166lbs and there's still so much fat left on my chest,stomach and lower body it's really scary. What will be left of me when I'm finished? I will be skinny as !#%$!!
But what is the other option? The other option is being fat and skinny. It doesn't change the fact that I am damn skinny and hardly have muscle mass. Wether my muscles are hidden by a thick layer of fat or not doesn't change anything.
Having a lot of fat and weighing more doesn't improve my health it only sounds "healthier" because people think that I have a normal weight. Without my fat I would have a pretty unhealthy sounding weight. Already now I am way too light for my size I should weigh around 170lbs without being fat. But I am already below 170lbs + I still have so much fat left.

I think you err when you suggest that you only have two choices - cut or bulk. That's generally the way it works for people who have more advanced physiques than you, but not for everyone, and IMO not for you.

I think you should stop bogging yourself by making this dichotomy and and that you should focus instead on increasing your general fitness level. This means developing a program that integrates cardio and muscle-building. It might take the form of circuit training, or lifting and doing cardio on separate days.

If you're lifting properly it will help you lose weight (altho not as much as cardio) as well as build muscle, because lifting increases testosterone levels and burns calories. Personally, I find I can lose way more fat by a balanced program of lifting and cardio, than by a program that over-emphasizes cardio.

As for diet, don't go to extremes of cutting or bulking. In your shape, the way to go is a common-sense diet based primarily on unrefined, non-starchy plant-based foods with a moderate amount of lean protein and a lesser amount of good fats (e.g., olive oil).

As for the fact that you have low T which prevents you from gaining muscle mass .... don't use this as an excuse. Buy Dr. Shippen's book (The Testosterone Syndrome I think it's called) to find non-invasive ways of boosting your test and cut out habits that decrease test.

If you keep on this track you'll eventually develop your physique to a point where you will need to decide whether to cut or bulk, but IMO that's a ways into the future. In the meantime you'll be losing a lot of fat while actually adding some muscle, which emans you'll look and feel a lot better.

[zumper]

Originally Posted by dunbar

These are my pics, which I already posted in another thread.

http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/2970/a1ys9.jpg

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/39/a2su2.jpg

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/3166/a3gn9.jpg

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/176/a4fw3.jpg

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/4050/a9xe0.jpg

http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/9929/a6yu9.jpg

As you can see I am skinny/fat without much muscle mass. + I have low T and from my own experience I can say that I don't gain very much muscle mass. I have been bulking in the past and I know how it works for me. It doesn't work at all. I have been given smart advice from people which told me stuff like: Hey, build muscle mass first and then go on a cut.
I thought it was a good idea but it wasn't. I gained a bit but also a lot of fat and later when I wanted to go on a cut I became scared of losing the hard earned muscle mass. It just didn't work. This is why I decided to focus on losing the damn fat. This is my goal and since I'm already damn skinny it doesn't even make a difference if I become a bit more skinny. I simply want to get rid of the fat on my thighs and ass. But others told me that going on a cut will totally ruin my metabolism because I will lose even more mass. But the only alternative would be going on a bulk and this will only make me fat. I want to get rid of the fat. I dont want to gain muscle mass and stay this way. Even if I could gain a bit I would still hate my thighs 'n ass. The fat on this area simply has to go. What would you suggest me? Currently I weigh around 166lbs and there's still so much fat left on my chest,stomach and lower body it's really scary. What will be left of me when I'm finished? I will be skinny as !#%$!!
But what is the other option? The other option is being fat and skinny. It doesn't change the fact that I am damn skinny and hardly have muscle mass. Wether my muscles are hidden by a thick layer of fat or not doesn't change anything.
Having a lot of fat and weighing more doesn't improve my health it only sounds "healthier" because people think that I have a normal weight. Without my fat I would have a pretty unhealthy sounding weight. Already now I am way too light for my size I should weigh around 170lbs without being fat. But I am already below 170lbs + I still have so much fat left.

Check all your hormone levels and see how you feel,what you want and your priorities in life and decide if you should go with TRT(obviously all hormones have their role in physique).
IMO you whould be helped more with a low-carb/High fat diet .

[eeso]

Greyowl is correct.

Don't get caught up in all the ways of advanced bodybuilders. Do a few days of weights and a few days of cardio every week. Or just do some cardio after your weights.

Don't stress too much, just workout hard and the results will come.

[DaVinci2]

Originally Posted by eeso

Greyowl is correct.

Don't get caught up in all the ways of advanced bodybuilders. Do a few days of weights and a few days of cardio every week. Or just do some cardio after your weights.

Don't stress too much, just workout hard and the results will come.

Working hard means doing more than a few days of this and that. Bodybuilders are pros at what they do, and often go to an extreme most won't. However, following a strict diet regiment and a good routine is not 'the way of the bodybuilder'. It's what everyone should be doing to stay healthy.

People in the gym that workout by jumping from machine to machine without any real sense of direction will see slow slow progress. Do it properly or don't do it at all. If you don't do it properly then don't cry when the results are less than average.

Originally Posted by Greyowl

If you're lifting properly it will help you lose weight (altho not as much as cardio) as well as build muscle

If you want to lose weight (Both muscle and fat) then cardio will help. Diet will help MORE. If you want to lose FAT the weights will play a more important role than cardio. You want to hold onto the muscle you have (Or, if you still a noob to lifting, enjoy your noobie gains). To do this you must LIFT and EAT accordinly. Cardio helps, HIIT is better.

[eeso]

I wasn't telling him to jump from machine to machine and do "this and that" with no routine.

I was just trying to say that the basics are more important to him than say "bulking" or "cutting".

I meant to say to get a solid routine in place with correct weight splits and a cardio day or two, and work hard with a consistent diet.

I train with a couple of champion bodybuilders - i'm not a complete jackass.

Oh and bulking/cutting cycles are a bit oldschool anyway, a lot of bodybuilders dont take it to that extreme these days. Lee Priest is a prime example of someone who does tho - that dude is a blimp offseason.

[dunbar]

Hi!
Of course I would like to lose fat while at the same time gaining some muscle mass but I don't know if this is possible. I am pretty clueless to be honest. Somehow this whole stuff overextends me. Bodybuilding really is complicated. You have to consider so many things and I don't get it done. I have problems with a good workout routine and also problems with eating. I run around in the gym pretty clueless.

I used to workout on and off for the past 3 years. But my gains always sucked. I would workout for a few months and gain fat and some muscles then I would become demotivated and stop working out and lose my gained muscle mass while maintaining the fat. This is why I decided that trying to gain muscles will not help me. First of all I have to lose the fat. This is why I went on a calory reduced diet a few months ago. I didn't workout during the whole time. I simply reduced my calories and ate clean and lost about 10-12 kilos. But now I have time and want to workout again and at least try to become a bit stronger and to aid the fat loss. But I don't know which workout routine would be best. I started working out last week and so far I have done a whole body workout every few days but this takes too long and at the end of the workout I am too fatigued and the muscle groups which I train last suffer from this. This is why I thought about switching to a different workout routine. Maybe a 3 day split which trains all important muscle groups. My problem is that I get caught up in various small exercises and I feel like what I do in the gym is totally planless and aimless, which is so frustrating.
I think that I am simply unable to come up with a good workout routine on my own. This whole stuff makes me feel so dumb. I don't understand how other people which are dumber than me can workout successfully but I simply don't seem able to manage these things. I really don't understand it.

I also don't know how many calories I need and what to eat. I eat the same stuff pretty much every day because I don't know how else I should do it. If I eat different stuff every day then counting calories becomes absolutely impossible.

In the morning I always eat the same.
I make a shake of oats,curd cheese,some whey protein and water.

On workout days I take 30-40gr dextrose + 20gr whey after the workout together with water.

90 minutes after the workout I usually eat pasta. 100-130gr pasta with tomatoe sauce. I also eat this on non-workout days simply because I don't know what else I should eat. I have been having this stuff (130gr pasta + tomatoe sauce) for dinner for the last months now and after all I have lost 10-12kilos in the past few months. A few months ago I was much fatter than I am now.

And in the evening I eat whatever we have. Sometimes I eat some eggs and bread or lean beef or chicken breasts. I don't really know how many calories I eat, this is a problem. I usually simply go by how hungry I am + I eat very clean. I don't eat any fast carbs expect after the workout.

And before going to bed I often make a shake of curd cheese and some protein powder because curd cheese is high in caseine.

This is what I usually eat. But I think that my fat intake isn't very high. I hardly eat anything which is high in fat. The oats have 7% fat and the other things which I eat also do not have much fat. Sometimes I eat some peanut butter just to get some fat and I also take fish oil (around 2000mg) every day.

Counting calories and developing a good diet is the hardest for me. I just don't really know how to do it. And it also becomes much harder on days where I'm not at home where I have to eat in a restaurant not even knowing how many calories I consume. This makes everything so complicated. I'm not dumb but somehow I am very bad at organizing things and this is a huge disadvantage because in order to be successful you have to organize and plan everything. Your food, your calories, your workout routine. And I totally suck at organizing things.

Here is a pic of my legs:

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7...oto0096fg7.jpg

All the fat is on the outer side of the leg which causes this typical female look.
There is so much fat on my legs. When I'm standing you don't even notice how much fat there is. But when I sit down you get a glimpse of it:

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/5782/5qr1.jpg

I just have to get rid of this fat. This is my main priority. I don't feel well this way. When I don't feel well I have a hard time accepting myself and when I cannot accept myself then my self esteem also suffers.

[DaVinci2]

Originally Posted by eeso

Oh and bulking/cutting cycles are a bit oldschool anyway, a lot of bodybuilders dont take it to that extreme these days. Lee Priest is a prime example of someone who does tho - that dude is a blimp offseason.

Old school? So how is it that bodybuilders gain mass and lose fat these days?

OP - don't try to come up with your own routine, you don't know how to make one. Follow the routine I posted, or something like this if you prefer a 3 day split

Day 1 : Chest and Back

Chest

Flat Barbell Bench Press : 2 x 6-8 reps
Low Incline Dumbbell Press : 2 x 6-8 reps
Dips : 2 x 6-8 reps

Back

Chin ups : 2 x 6-8 reps
Deadlifts : 2 x 6-8 reps
Barbell Rows : 2 x 6-8 reps
Shrugs : 1 x 10 reps

Day 2 : OFF

Day 3 : Legs

Squats : 2 x 6-8 reps
Hack Squats : 2 x 6-8 reps
Leg Curls : 2 x 6-8 reps
Straight Legged Deadlifts : 2 x 6-8 reps
Standing Calve Raises : 4 x 10 reps

Day 4 : OFF

Day 5 : Shoulders, Triceps and Biceps

Shoulders

Military Press in Rack : 2 x 6-8 reps
Seated Dumbbell Press : 2 x 6-8 reps
Standing Lateral Raises : 2 x 10 reps

Triceps :

Narrow Grip bench Press : 2 x 6-8 reps
French Press : 2 x 6-8 reps

Biceps :

Barbell Curls : 2 x 6-8 reps
Hammer Curls : 1 x 6-8 reps

Day 6 : OFF

Day 7 : OFF

Like I said, cut or bulk, it's all diet. For a look at how to do it both, I recommend reading this
http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...52#post1290352

[dunbar]

Thanks man!

But are 6 sets for chest and back really enough when you train those muscle groups only once a week? I usually do at least 6 sets of rowing. And after that even more sets of other exercises. I thought that when you train a muscle group only once a week you have to really shock the muscles in order to make sure that they also need 1 week to recover.

[DaVinci2]

Originally Posted by dunbar

Thanks man!

But are 6 sets for chest and back really enough when you train those muscle groups only once a week? I usually do at least 6 sets of rowing. And after that even more sets of other exercises. I thought that when you train a muscle group only once a week you have to really shock the muscles in order to make sure that they also need 1 week to recover.

First, if you are able to lift more by the end of the routine, you are not lifting enough. Add more weight, but keep your form. Google 'overtraining'. When you lift HEAVY you will create the microtraumas that lead to muscle when you eat properly.

It seems you don't know much about how to lift, what is good and what isn't. Go to www.wannabebig.com and learn. There is a vast amount of information there and people who could go into far more detail about why something works and something doesn't. Read, and remember the search function is your friend.

[Vforcer2]

Not saying this is for you, but for the Hollywood role of "Million Dollar Baby", Hillary Swank put on 23 lbs of muscle and cut body fat by training VERY hard, cutting out carbs, and eating pretty much nothing but protein and copious amounts of flax seed oil, plus two cheat days per week.

The results were quite impressive.

See this Youtube video from her trainor Grant Roberts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SGUw...elated&search=

Some articles:
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do...49554&pageNo=0

http://www.mrtimes.com/issues05/012205/sports.html

Another article quotes:

Swank trained 4 1/2 hours a day, boxing and weight training. She ate about 210 grams of protein a day. "No, let me rephrase that," she says, grinning. "I had to eat exactly 210 grams of protein a day. I know because I had to eat every hour and a half in order to get enough... I had to wake up in the middle of the night to eat more. I was drinking egg whites and flax seed oil and raw shakes. I lost a breast size - my trainer was like, 'Ooh yeah, I forgot to tell you about that.'"

[Ruper]

I definitely got to the stage where my low T lewves were holding me back. I'd bulk and put on 4x more fat than muscle.

HOWEVER, my routine and particularly diet were really quite good - I maintained in the 9-12%BF range - just too small. After TRT I put on an easy 15lb of LBM in a few months without changing anything and mostly on a calorie deficit (I lost fat at the same time- I was about 12%BF when I started!).

So while it can make a difference, you really need to have your diet and routine down before you can blame it all on low T. Certainly low T will not help. Your diet sounds OK, but wihtout counting calories and logging food intake, can you really be sure you are being consistent?

I'd skip the dex PWO - just go for 5-6 solid meals/day. Lots of lean(ish) (need some fats - 20-30% of calories) - meat, fibrous veg and good fats. Make sure you are getting enough fat.

Skip bread, pasta, white rice etc... If in doubt lean meat + fibrous veg and add good fats if not around WO, otherwise add some carbs (sweet potato, brown rice or similar). I know pasta has been working so far, but I'd really try to reduce refined carbs.

Search bodybuilding.com or johnstonefitness for more info on 'good' diets.

[dunbar]

Thanks for your tips.

But I don't think that this low volume training works for me. I already lift heavy. I cannot lift heavier. With heavy I mean that I lift as much as I can. For example when I'm rowing on the machine I always try to push my limits and also do 1 set where I only do very few reps with a heavy weight to get more strength. But this doesn't really exhaust me. I can do a lot of sets for the back and it doesn't exhaust me. I can do a heavy set with 5 reps and afterwards reduce the weight a bit and do a few more sets in the 8-12 rep range this is no problem at all. But when it comes to the chest it's totally different because of my triceps which is very weak. But I cannot lift that heavy that 2 sets for the back would exhaust my back to the point that I couldn't do any more sets. No way.
Even if I tried super slow training it wouldn't work.
Do you mean normal lifiting? How can you exhaust your back with 2 sets of normal lifting? I don't understand this. Even if I did super slow reps with a high TUT two sets wouldn't be enough for my back.

[DaVinci2]

Dude, I'm totaly keen on helping, but you have to READ and LEARN. Check the links posted.

First, don't go to failure. Don't lift till you can't lift anymore, you'll burn out your CNS (Central Nervous System). Slow, progressive workouts buddy. On occasion going to failure is fine, but not every single set of every single exercise.

The way it works is this. If you can manage to row 100lbs, then start at say 90 for your first set, then do 100 for your second. The following week, add 5lbs if you can manage it. Keep doing this. If you are eating properly (A lot of calories, good calories and protein) then you WILL see gains. If you don't, then somethings not right. DO NOT worry about 'the pump' or 'the burn'...they mean nothing when it comes to muscle gain. The same goes for any body part. Remember, than COMPOUND lifts are the key here.

AND...get off the MACHINES!! Use FREE WEIGHTS. If you want to work your back, do chin-ups, deadlifts etc. If you can do 2x6 chin-ups, strap a weight to your legs. You need to add weight. If you can deadlift 300lbs and walk away feeling fine, then you've got some superman genetics for a skinny fat boy.

Before you post anything else, read. THEN post your EXACT routine (Exercises, sets, reps, days you train etc.)