For the anti-Iraq war folks

[greyowl]

Originally Posted by oldtimer

AgreedX2. If the US troops pull out now it would lead to civil war no doubt about it.

There already is a civil war.

[greyowl]

Originally Posted by Bob Smith

Thats the key. We are there, whats done is done, and we cant pull out without causing even more problems, so what do we do?

Looking back, its easy to say "well, we should have used more troops, or we should have done this or that." Unfortunately none of us have that crystal ball to be able to predict and manage situations perfectly. Does the US send 20 or 50 or 100k more troops now to stop the insurgents, or do they stick with current levels? Why does it seem like the Iraqi army isnt taking over? Are we not training them in a manner for them to be able to take over?

I want our troops back home, but leaving now would be disastrous.

Bobbo, you're going to think I'm am assehole for saying this (well, I am an assehole, but that's a topic for another thread) but I was closely following the war in Vietnam at a time when you had other pressing matters that absorbed your attention, such as which of your mother's breast to nurse at. And I can tell you that your reasoning sounds identical to the arguments that decision-makers used to stay the course in Vietnam long after the outcome was settled, at the cost of more blood.

Leaving aside for the moment whether the U.S. should stay the course in Iraq, there's another important issue that people aren't talking about. The people at the top exercised very bad judgement in the way they went into that godforsaken shithole, and after. There's also considerable evidence that that they deliberately obfsucated the facts in the way they presented their case to the American people. Thousands of innocent people have died as a direct result of the way these decisions fucked up, yet these leaders are dan cing as hard as they can to avoid being held accountable for the outcomes that happened because of their actions, and on their watch -- and they're succeeding.

[swing]

Originally Posted by greyowl

There already is a civil war.

Your observation is most correct...they ARE in a civil war.

[Bob Smith]

Originally Posted by greyowl

Bobbo, you're going to think I'm am assehole for saying this (well, I am an assehole, but that's a topic for another thread)

Point conceeded.

but I was closely following the war in Vietnam at a time when you had other pressing matters that absorbed your attention, such as which of your mother's breast to nurse at.

You overestimate my age. I wasnt even a glimmer in my mothers eye when Vietnam was going on. IIRC, I was more along the time of the Russian/Afghan war.

And I can tell you that your reasoning sounds identical to the arguments that decision-makers used to stay the course in Vietnam long after the outcome was settled, at the cost of more blood.

What would you propose?

[Weatherlite]

Wow...we all agree that the US fucked up the war by doing too little, too late and by half-assing it. AND, we all agree that pulling out now would be a bigger travesty than beginning the war. How the hell did that happen???

Here's a question then....if we would have stayed out of Iraq then what do you think would have happened over there? Would the people eventually have revolted or formed a military coup? Maybe just leave it as was and accept oppression?

As for me bringing up the Gulf War example I was only trying to show that even Saddam's troops were capable of horrbile things and that this was kept through the years even after Desert Storm. It would have continued for as long as they were in power. It had to stop sometime and I'm glad we're the ones who are trying to do the right thing.

[CyniQ]

Originally Posted by greyowl

I don't give a shit what the price of oil is in Iraq. But I do know one thing -- the price of oil in Iraq under U.S. occupation is worth a lot more than the price of human blood.

I'll tell you anyway. Or maybe I won't. I can't find a definite price at the moment. But I've heard estimates between .05 and .21 per gallon within the last several months. I think that's significant. It lets you know a little about the actual costs involved in getting that oil out of the ground. Of course, those numbers are probably heavily subsidized. So, maybe I just countered my own point.

It just cost me $70 to fill up my truck. I spend over $300 per week on gas.

What do you and swing think will happen when the US pulls out of Iraq? Will the insurgency immediately cease? All of the bombers will throw away their duct tape and dynomite and go home?

[Bob Smith]

Originally Posted by CyniQ

But I've heard estimates between .05 and .21 per gallon within the last several months. I think that's significant. It lets you know a little about the actual costs involved in getting that oil out of the ground. Of course, those numbers are probably heavily subsidized.

I have heard numbers of between 5 and 10 cents per gallon. Gas is HEAVILY subsidized in Iraq, costing the Iraqi govt over $3 billion last year.

[Grizzly]

Originally Posted by oldtimer

To answer the question about it being worth it or not I say, I'd rather live under opperssion than see half my family die for the so called freedom. What good is freedom if the people who are supposed to live it are dead anyway?

It's that very attitude that allows injustice and tyrrany to exist. You're a new father. If you could guarantee your child a better life by giving yours in a war against your oppressor, would you? Or would you rather keep in place the regime which might provide for her rape or torture?

[swing]

What do you and swing think will happen when the US pulls out of Iraq? Will the insurgency immediately cease? All of the bombers will throw away their duct tape and dynomite and go home?

No, the insurgency will definitely remain, and make every attempt to annihilate the US backed government. .

Griz- I understand what you are saying. However, an analysis of political history in the Middle East has revealed on numerous occassions that whenever the US interfers in the region, a worse scenario always arises. A number of governments have been overthrown with the help of the US, and I cannot think of one instance where the outcome was more beneficial than the prior situation. If the Iraqis overthrow one corrupt government, who's to guarantee that a worse tyrant will not assume office (be they American-supported or not)?

[CyniQ]

Originally Posted by swing

What do you and swing think will happen when the US pulls out of Iraq? Will the insurgency immediately cease? All of the bombers will throw away their duct tape and dynomite and go home?

No, the insurgency will definitely remain, and make every attempt to annihilate the US backed government. .

Griz- I understand what you are saying. However, an analysis of political history in the Middle East has revealed on numerous occassions that whenever the US interfers in the region, a worse scenario always arises. A number of governments have been overthrown with the help of the US, and I cannot think of one instance where the outcome was more beneficial than the prior situation. If the Iraqis overthrow one corrupt government, who's to guarantee that a worse tyrant will not assume office (be they American-supported or not)?

There was this thing in the 40's where Germany was occupying most of Europe...

Pedantic teach thyself.

There are no guarantees in this life, I'll give you that. But what does that have to do with allowing an oppressive regime to stand? Benjamin Franklin said that those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

And the Middle East has revealed on numerous occasions that they can't accomplish a Goddamned thing without killing each other. All you pansy-ass apologist fags want to blame it on the US. But will the killing stop when the US leaves? No. Then they will be fighting against the "US installed gov't". Will they stop killing their own people after that's done? No. There will be some other lame ass excuse. And after that there will be another. Because these people have been killing each other for so long now. They can't even remember why or what for. Blame it on what you will. But the fact is. Those people were in a world of shit before we got there and it will be the same long after we're gone, I expect.

[swing]

Originally Posted by CyniQ

There was this thing in the 40's where Germany was occupying most of Europe...

Pedantic teach thyself.

And the Middle East has revealed on numerous occasions that they can't accomplish a Goddamned thing without killing each other. All you pansy-ass apologist fags want to blame it on the US. But will the killing stop when the US leaves? No. Then they will be fighting against the "US installed gov't". Will they stop killing their own people after that's done? No. There will be some other lame ass excuse. And after that there will be another. Because these people have been killing each other for so long now. They can't even remember why or what for. Blame it on what you will. But the fact is. Those people were in a world of shit before we got there and it will be the same long after we're gone, I expect.

Talking about blame. Were the Iraqi people killing one another prior to the US invasion? NO! Were there any terrorists in Iraq prior to the US invasion? NO! Was there a civil war prior to the US invasion? NO! Were Iraqi civilians kidnapping anyone prior to the US invasion? NO! Bottomline...had the invasion not occurred none of these events would be occurring. In fact, in the first year of the war alone, more than 10,000 innocent Iraqi civilians were killed by the US bombs, explosions, and bullets. By many estimates, this is more than has been blamed on Saddam within a given year (maybe with the exception of gasing the Kurds). Oh, and who assisted Saddam's ascention to power? Oh, the US!

And provide an example of a Middle Eastern country where the people are fighting one another for a reason they can't even remember.

[greyowl]

Originally Posted by Bob Smith

What would you propose?

That we learn from the mistakes made in Vietnam and other wars so that we don't keep inflicting them upon ourselves.

[oldtimer]

Originally Posted by Grizzly

It's that very attitude that allows injustice and tyrrany to exist. You're a new father. If you could guarantee your child a better life by giving yours in a war against your oppressor, would you? Or would you rather keep in place the regime which might provide for her rape or torture?

The problem is that eveyrone in the US seems to think that ALL iraqis have been raped and tortured, while it wasn't the case. If I were to choose to live in Iraq under Saddam's regime or live now (I can't comment on the future as I hope it will be brighter), I'd def choose Saddam's time.

The father of a friend of mine who lives here in Saudi with his mother (since she is divorced) told me that his Iraqi father died recently (I posted about this awhile ago I think). A grenade was thrown inside his car while he, and his 12 year old son were inside it. The father immidiatly died and the son spent a day or two IIRC before he died in the hospital of severe burns. His father had some money and his brother was held hostage for ransom, the kindappers took the money then killed the father and son. Saddam was a bad man, yes, but if it were you in my friend's shoes, would you rather live under Saddam or have your father and brother killed like that (and lose a lot of money too)?

[Grizzly]

I would rather have led an uprising against Saddam. Personally, I'm just looking for a large enough army to revolt against the gov't of the US and put their asses back in check. But maybe that is just me.

So what if not ALL of the people were raped and tortured. That's a function of geography more than anything, I would guess. The fact remains that under such a regime you must live in the fear of being raped, tortured, robbed or whatever. Fear should not be the ruling emotion of your life.

[swing]

Originally Posted by Grizzly

So what if not ALL of the people were raped and tortured. That's a function of geography more than anything, I would guess. The fact remains that under such a regime you must live in the fear of being raped, tortured, robbed or whatever. Fear should not be the ruling emotion of your life.

It was for millions of African-Americans and Native Americans. Personally, I don't see much difference between what the Baathist Regime did to its own people, and what the US did to African-Americans and Native-Americans. Biological warfare (infecting blankets with smallpox for the Native Americans, and injecting African-Americans with the syphillis virus), state-sanctioned murder, etc.