Great video

[Kayz]

I support every American soldier period. I just don't support this stupid war.

IMO, that's impossible. You can't despise what the soldiers are doing (or being asked to do if you want to be politically correct), but support them at the same time. You can't be against the mission, yet support the ones conducting it.

Saying "I support the war" is democrats way of making them fell all warm and fuzzy, when in reality war isn't warm and fuzzy.

I live in the heart of labor union country and there is a fucking strike every other day. I hate unions, I hate union workers who feel entitled to make $36/hour with a GED, and I hate labor strikes. It would be wrong of me to say "I support the workers, but I don't support their strike".....because they are the fucking ones doing it.

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by Kayz

IMO, that's impossible. You can't despise what the soldiers are doing (or being asked to do if you want to be politically correct), but support them at the same time. You can't be against the mission, yet support the ones conducting it.

Saying "I support the war" is democrats way of making them fell all warm and fuzzy, when in reality war isn't warm and fuzzy.

I live in the heart of labor union country and there is a fucking strike every other day. I hate unions, I hate union workers who feel entitled to make $36/hour with a GED, and I hate labor strikes. It would be wrong of me to say "I support the workers, but I don't support their strike".....because they are the fucking ones doing it.

Weatherlite, you are right, I'm not there so I don't know what it's like to be there personally. I do know people that are there, and they tell me what its like.

I try to get involved, but with two kids and a stay at home wife, its hard to find the time.


Kayz, If you can't see the difference between supporting our troops and not supporting fucking politicians and their BS war then you should be making less than your evil "union workers" .
I don't despise what the soldiers are doing, I just despise the people that are forcing them to do it for all the wrong reasons.

[oldtimer]

Originally Posted by Weatherlite

I have to laugh at this for a moment. The VAST majority of the media is against the war and tells lies about it every day. There is so little truth about the war coming out of the media that really we are in an age of yellow journalism all over again. So, you saying to NOT believe the media means you are saying we SHOULD be in Iraq and SHOULD be doing what we are doing....and yet you say we shouldn't.

That's what I dislike about this society. People want to hear only the part of the story which fits their veiws and nothing else....ie watching only part of the video....and then make their decisions off of that. That's just not how it should work but unfortunately it does. I can't tell you how many people I have met who feel one way and talk like they know what's going on. (similar to what Bigcountry said about people on TV saying they know what it's like over there when they've only been there for 2 days or some shit) And when these same people actually suck up their pride and sit down to talk to someone who really DOSE know what's going on and can give them the REAL story they tend to change their tune a bit....not always a reversal of opinion but a refinement for sure.

Yes, it's easy to be an armchair quarterback in a football game and it's just as easy to be a couch General and sit on our asses and criticize the war from our living rooms. But what does everyone base their opinions on? Information received from the media....a BIASED media. A media with their own agenda. Quite honestly in some cases a TREASONOUS media when they intentionally print lies against our country or print the names of covert agents. All this has happened. There's a song out recently called "Waiting on the world to change" by John Mayer. I finally listened to the actual words one day and a part of them I didn't like...a part I hated but only because it is a harsh reality. They are:

it's hard to beat the system
when we're standing at a distance
so we keep waiting
waiting on the world to change

That part basically means people need to get involved in government if they want to see a change instead of just bitching to their buddies and on forums like this. BTW, Yes I DO get involved.


now if we had the power
to bring our neighbors home from war
they would have never missed a Christmas
no more ribbons on their door

I don't like that part simply because it's saying the people are powerless. Not true. People are LAZY. That's why we have so many problems in this country....but that's another thread.

The lines I really hate are:

and when you trust your television
what you get is what you got
cause when they own the information, oh
they can bend it all they want

I hate it simply because it's true. There have been so many made up stories, doctored photographs, staged videos etc etc that it is ludicrous! It should be criminal!! And people are believing this crap simply because it's all they get because they are too lazy to do their own searches on the internet.

Now, is my point of view 100% accurate? Nope. mine will of course be skewed a bit by my personal beliefs and experiences. So will everyone elses. I just tire of hearing the bullshit and am exercising my right to bitch about it.

That is very true Wetherlite, I posted about this exact same subject (truth-capturing by media as opposed to truth-capturing by one's own experience) a couple of years ago or so on meso.

People forget that journalists, media channel owners, reporters etc, they are all humans just like us, and their reporting is heavily influenced by their own emotions and beliefs, it's impossible to perceive a certain event 100% in exactly the same way by two different people that don't share the same beliefs, this is very evident by history, where a certain historical era/event sounds very different based on the historian documenting the event, even for events that made a huge impact on the world (for example, Jesus, different religions document his era and his life in different ways), so twisting truth for less obvious events will be much easier.

[prodigy06]

Originally Posted by Kayz

IMO, that's impossible. You can't despise what the soldiers are doing (or being asked to do if you want to be politically correct), but support them at the same time. You can't be against the mission, yet support the ones conducting it.

Saying "I support the war" is democrats way of making them fell all warm and fuzzy, when in reality war isn't warm and fuzzy.

I live in the heart of labor union country and there is a fucking strike every other day. I hate unions, I hate union workers who feel entitled to make $36/hour with a GED, and I hate labor strikes. It would be wrong of me to say "I support the workers, but I don't support their strike".....because they are the fucking ones doing it.

The American soilders could just refuse top fight, but they don't. This isn't Russia were you get shot if you refuse to fight.. in fact Russian soilders have had enough balls to say "no, I'm not doing this stupid shit" and the government lost all it's power over them. So, why can't Americans? Even my friends who are in the Army I tell them, "what you're doing is wrong" and they agree, somewhat, but just go along with it anyway. stoooopid. Even Osama Bin Landen agrees that the only real problem with Americans is that they choose to have a government who misrepresents them. That's so true.

[Preacher]

Originally Posted by prodigy06

The American soilders could just refuse top fight, but they don't. This isn't Russia were you get shot if you refuse to fight.. in fact Russian soilders have had enough balls to say "no, I'm not doing this stupid shit" and the government lost all it's power over them. So, why can't Americans? Even my friends who are in the Army I tell them, "what you're doing is wrong" and they agree, somewhat, but just go along with it anyway. stoooopid. Even Osama Bin Landen agrees that the only real problem with Americans is that they choose to have a government who misrepresents them. That's so true.

hey Prodigy, its not that easy, in the army we are basically taught to go along with it. We are there to be paid from the neck down. We are trained to basically do what we are told. The second we step up and say wait I don't think this is right, We lose the job we love. In your Job Prodigy, are you allowed to tell your boss that he's doing it wrong, with out reprocautions? Alot of us do it because we love the job.

[prodigy06]

Originally Posted by Preacher

hey Prodigy, its not that easy, in the army we are basically taught to go along with it. We are there to be paid from the neck down. We are trained to basically do what we are told. The second we step up and say wait I don't think this is right, We lose the job we love. In your Job Prodigy, are you allowed to tell your boss that he's doing it wrong, with out reprocautions? Alot of us do it because we love the job.

Yea, that's why I got fired a lot
But, why do you love your job when your job is invading and killing people (who inturn kill your friends) for no reason? Case and point - Iraq. Don't you think it's your job sometimes to say "No".
Like, if my boss asked me to jerk him off or I'd get fired i'd say no. Just cause your boss says to do it doesn't mean it's right... then again, your boss is following orders from those higher up so it's acutally his job to say "No" in your best interest, but when he doesn't you should.

[Kayz]

Originally Posted by prodigy06

Yea, that's why I got fired a lot
But, why do you love your job when your job is invading and killing people (who inturn kill your friends) for no reason? Case and point - Iraq. Don't you think it's your job sometimes to say "No".
Like, if my boss asked me to jerk him off or I'd get fired i'd say no. Just cause your boss says to do it doesn't mean it's right... then again, your boss is following orders from those higher up so it's acutally his job to say "No" in your best interest, but when he doesn't you should.

Yeah, but that is YOUR perception of what is going on. I'm sure some of the soldiers share that viewpoint and have the option not to re-enlist when there time is up. On the other hand, I'm sure there are many soldiers who don't feel that their job is to "invade and kill people for no reason". Maybe they truly believe in the fact that what they are doing is the right thing....why is that wrong?? Not everyone has to share your viewpoint. Also, maybe they don't agree with the war, but maybe they've lost enough friends in battle that they refuse to let their comrades die in vain. That's what keeps them going.

Most Americans do not love their job. Most Americans will NEVER get to do what they really wanted in life. Shit happens, suck it up and do what you need to do to take care of your family.

[Kayz]

Originally Posted by Dionysus

Weatherlite, you are right, I'm not there so I don't know what it's like to be there personally. I do know people that are there, and they tell me what its like.

I try to get involved, but with two kids and a stay at home wife, its hard to find the time.


Kayz, If you can't see the difference between supporting our troops and not supporting fucking politicians and their BS war then you should be making less than your evil "union workers" .
I don't despise what the soldiers are doing, I just despise the people that are forcing them to do it for all the wrong reasons.

LOL. This isn't about supporting politicians and their bullshit war. I hate all politicains be they republican, democrat, green, etc. Personally, I lean more conservative but consider a libertarian. I'm liberal on some issues and conservative on others. Thus, there really isn't a single politician that "represents" me.

All I"M saying is that you cannot support the troops but be against what they are going. That thought, IMO, is flawed. That's like Nancy Pelosi, John Murtha, Harry Reid, and Ted Kennedy (all flaming liberals) saying "...we support the troops 110%, but we are going to introduce a bill to cut the war funding just to show Mr. Bush who's calling the shots here...". Most democrats get all warm and fuzzy when you talk about cutting war funding, but yet they "support the troops." It doesn't work that way.

[prodigy06]

Originally Posted by Kayz

I'm sure there are many soldiers who don't feel that their job is to "invade and kill people for no reason".

can't disagree with that, that is why the "war" is still going on after all

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by Kayz

LOL. This isn't about supporting politicians and their bullshit war. I hate all politicains be they republican, democrat, green, etc. Personally, I lean more conservative but consider a libertarian. I'm liberal on some issues and conservative on others. Thus, there really isn't a single politician that "represents" me.

I could have written that, as it describes me perfectly.

Originally Posted by Kayz

All I"M saying is that you cannot support the troops but be against what they are going.(sic)

Sure you can. In fact, I support them so much I'd like to see 'em all safe back in the States rather than getting bombed and shot.

Originally Posted by Kayz

That thought, IMO, is flawed. That's like Nancy Pelosi, John Murtha, Harry Reid, and Ted Kennedy (all flaming liberals) saying "...we support the troops 110%, but we are going to introduce a bill to cut the war funding just to show Mr. Bush who's calling the shots here...". Most democrats get all warm and fuzzy when you talk about cutting war funding, but yet they "support the troops." It doesn't work that way.

The Democrats will say or do just about anything to insure the next prez. will be a Democrat. Thats why I neither trust or believe a word that comes out of their twisted little mouths.

Kayz, I just think there's a lot more to "Operation Iraqi Freedom" than meets the eye, and I can't in good conscience be a supporter of that.

[Weatherlite]

A slightly philosophical question for ya....if you supported your son or daughter no matter what, would you say "Daughter, I support you in all of your efforts to be a crack whore and screw guys for 10 bucks a pop....but I sure don't believe in it." ?? No you wouldn't. Look at it from a less drastic point of view. If you son wanted to be a mail man but you felt that wasn't good enough for him, as a father you would STILL support his career choice and would support all of his efforts to become a mail carrier. That's what's key here. If you support someone then you support and back what they are doing. You can't have it both ways in 99.9% of the cases. The men and women in uniform who complain and bitch and cry and moan and need the sand washed out of their vagina's account for probably less than .05% of the total military population. Who do we hear about and see on TV? The fucking whiners.

Ask someone in uniform sometime if they support the war or not. My bet is that you'll be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't. Now, they might say it sucks or that they don't like it etc but they support it and know there is a VERY valid reason to be there. I know people who have been blown up, shot and lost limbs....and they would go back in a heartbeat if they could!! Some have!!!! There's even a guy I read an article on recently who is a quadruple amputee....and he doesn't regret a thing and still does what he can for the military!

Perhaps this is a bad example but I'm goin with it anyway. If you wanted to know which video card you should buy...say an X1900 vs a 7900 would you ask the appliance repairman or the video game geek down the street who has one of each installed on his computer and has them hooked to independent monitors and plays Halo2 on it all day? Then why do people believe a media and elected officials who have NOT "been there done that" and only have their own agendas in mind?

Believe those who have done and are still doing the job. I sure as hell aren't bringing my car in for a tune-up to Dunkin Donuts anytime soon.

[Dionysus]

Weatherlite, with all due respect:

I appreciate the effort you are putting in, in attempt to enlighten me.

Understand this then: I believe in my heart that the soldiers in Iraq are serving their country bravely and honorably, and they truely believe they are doing the right thing. In fact, they are doing the right thing: following orders, and fighting for their country. I can't think of anything more honorable than that. For that I owe them a debt that is impossible to repay.

But as a voter and citizen, those soldiers rely on us to vote into office respectable and honorable politicians that have the best interests of their nation at heart, and at this we have failed them miserably, and placed them in a bad position of fighting a battle we have no business fighting, all while our American borders to the south remain open, admitting thousands upon thousands of criminals every day.

So you must understand my opinion if you are to criticize it. WE THE PEOPLE are to blame for allowing an unethical dim-wit to head our country, who is surrounded by criminals and...., well, lets just say people that hold OTHER nations interests ahead of our own.

These politicians, from the top down, are running this country into the ground. And with Obama or Hillary on the horizon, I can only see things getting worse. However the point remains that absolutely no more of our troops should die fighting in Iraq.

We have other more honorable battles on the horizon that will need to be fought.

[Kayz]

Originally Posted by Dionysus

Weatherlite, with all due respect:

I appreciate the effort you are putting in, in attempt to enlighten me.

Understand this then: I believe in my heart that the soldiers in Iraq are serving their country bravely and honorably, and they truely believe they are doing the right thing. In fact, they are doing the right thing: following orders, and fighting for their country. I can't think of anything more honorable than that. For that I owe them a debt that is impossible to repay.

But as a voter and citizen, those soldiers rely on us to vote into office respectable and honorable politicians that have the best interests of their nation at heart, and at this we have failed them miserably, and placed them in a bad position of fighting a battle we have no business fighting, all while our American borders to the south remain open, admitting thousands upon thousands of criminals every day.

So you must understand my opinion if you are to criticize it. WE THE PEOPLE are to blame for allowing an unethical dim-wit to head our country, who is surrounded by criminals and...., well, lets just say people that hold OTHER nations interests ahead of our own.

These politicians, from the top down, are running this country into the ground. And with Obama or Hillary on the horizon, I can only see things getting worse. However the point remains that absolutely no more of our troops should die fighting in Iraq.

We have other more honorable battles on the horizon that will need to be fought.

I understand the underlying basis of what you are trying to say, but there's one problem: Bush was elected long before any of this started (even though one could make the argument that this conflict has been brewing for 20 years and we are finally confronting it head on). We the people also re-elected this man by a wide majority to finish the job. Now, has the progress been lacking? Yes. Has the war gone exaclty as planned? Absolutely not. But those men and women in uniform still volunteered to fight this war. Nobody has been forced to do anything.

And I see that you too think Bush is dumb and dim-witted. That's fine, but he was smart enough to get elected President of the most powerful country in the world twice. If you are going to blame him for how bad things have gone in Iraq, then fine...that's fair game. But you also must then credit his administration with preventing any further terrorist attacks on US soil. Has he pissed off the Arab world? Yes, he has. Do the terrorists and the countries whom support them now know that they have a true fight on their hands and the days of blowing up US embassies and carrier ships without retaliation are over? Abso-fucking-lutely they do.

Bush has made great progress with other "rogue" states. Libya and Qadafi completely dismantled their nuclear and chemical programs and shipped all of their weapons equipment to Los Alamos. The media forgets to talk about that. That was huge as Libya has been the biggest exporter of terrorism for decades. N. Korea has backed down and has stopped flexing their muscles. That too goes unnoticed. We are slowly isolating Iran and the Iranian people know they are fucked long term if Ahmadinejad stays in power.

As far as our open borders, you and I are in agreement. I think the borders should be shut completely until we come up with a better alternative/plan of regulating whose in this country. It's a priviledge to be in the US, not a right IMO.

Hillary and Obama will not be the next presidents. The country knows Hillary too well, and they know nothing about Obama. IMO, the guy to keep an eye on is Newt Gingrich. He's a shrewd politician who did great things for America. IMO, out of all the pundits you see on tv, he's been making the most sense lately with respect to Iraq and Iran.

[Kayz]

And for all the people out there who like to say "...Bush went into Iraq to steal their oil so that his oil buddies can get rich....", I have 2 things to say:

1) Why in the fuck am I paying $3 for a gallon of gas???

2 Will you please read this new article that came out today:

Iraqi Oil contracts go to the Chinese and others

Now this was a lose lose for Bush. If he gives all the contracts to US firms, the democrats will say "..see, it was about the oil...he's lining his buddies pockets at the expense of US lives...". Now that he has done just the opposite, the democrats will say "...Bush should have given those contracts to US firms...no chinese have died in Iraq, why do they deserve to reap the benefits....?"

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by Kayz

Bush was elected long before any of this started (even though one could make the argument that this conflict has been brewing for 20 years and we are finally confronting it head on). We the people also re-elected this man by a wide majority to finish the job.

Thus my stance that we have failed our troops miserably.

Originally Posted by Kayz

And I see that you too think Bush is dumb and dim-witted. That's fine, but he was smart enough to get elected President of the most powerful country in the world twice.

Nothing you can say will change my belief that he is an idiot.

Plus, I'm not yet convinced that our voting system has not been corrupted.

Originally Posted by Kayz

If you are going to blame him for how bad things have gone in Iraq, then fine...that's fair game. But you also must then credit his administration with preventing any further terrorist attacks on US soil.

Fine. Credit granted. [Even a broken clock is right twice a day]

Originally Posted by Kayz

Has he pissed off the Arab world? Yes, he has.

Has he pissed off the entire world! Fuckin -A- Right he has.

Originally Posted by Kayz

Do the terrorists and the countries whom support them now know that they have a true fight on their hands and the days of blowing up US embassies and carrier ships without retaliation are over? Abso-fucking-lutely they do.

Since when did we not retaliate against terrorist acts? Perhaps not to the extent of destroying the terrorists, and then destroying a neighboring country that was NOT INVOLVED WITH THE ACT AT ALL!

Originally Posted by Kayz

Bush has made great progress with other "rogue" states. Libya and Qadafi completely dismantled their nuclear and chemical programs and shipped all of their weapons equipment to Los Alamos. The media forgets to talk about that. That was huge as Libya has been the biggest exporter of terrorism for decades.

Bush had little or nothing to do with Gaddafi's dismantling of Libya's nuclear program, despite what Bush's propaganda spin doctors may say.

I offer proof: See the section about reform.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_al-Gaddafi

Originally Posted by Kayz

N. Korea has backed down and has stopped flexing their muscles. That too goes unnoticed.

Admittedly I know very little about North Korea, other than that diplomatic relations between the US and North Korea have worsened since Bush's tenure.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/2340405.stm

Originally Posted by Kayz

As far as our open borders, you and I are in agreement. I think the borders should be shut completely until we come up with a better alternative/plan of regulating whose in this country. It's a priviledge to be in the US, not a right IMO.

I knew we could find common ground.

Originally Posted by Kayz

Hillary and Obama will not be the next presidents. The country knows Hillary too well, and they know nothing about Obama.

God, I hope you are right Kayz.