Is it still racist?

[Grizzly]

Is it still racist to talk shit about Palestinians(and, presumably, all the rest of 'em) after the vast majority of their population voted into office a terrorist organization with the mission statement of "destroy Israel"? Haven't they sort of proven that 85% of the country deserves condemnation?

[MANWHORE]

I don't know about that but i can tell you i still hate polocks

[DaneGer]

polocks why? I donno bout that Hamas crap i hope we nuke the terds well not nuke but use something like VX poision gas

[Baby Faced Assasin]

hey grizzhttp://forum.mesomorphosis.com/attac...2&d=1138352304

[Grizzly]

Goddamnit, where is that swing fellow? I laid the bait, now he's supposed to take it.

I'm not proposing we start an anti-Arab coalition or anything. I'm simply saying that if one were to say, "those damned towel heads. :shake head: They're always trying to blow up Jews and whitey", he would not be too far off, now would he? And it wouldn't be because of some predjudice, as the hippies are always claiming, because 3/4 of the country just showed it to be true.

[swing]

Grizz,

I wasn't going to interject. However, since my wise council has been sought, I will say this: the Palestinians elected Hamas not because of a support for terrorism, rather because Hamas is the only organization capable and willing to provide health care, food, after-school resources, etc. Hamas is also known for their anti-corruption campaign.

By saying that everyone who voted for Hamas, supports terrorism is like saying, "everyone who voted for Bush supports the Iraq War." And we know that polls display otherwise.

Hamas will eventually change their rhetoric, and become a viable and constructive political tool for the Palestinians. They will acknowledge Israel as a state, and offer a cease fire. If you know anything about the ME (which it is obvious you do not) one must remember that 30 years ago, Israel vehemently opposed anything mentioning Palestinian statehood, and murdered thousands of Palestinian Muslims and Christians. History is repeating itself.

[kis55]

Originally Posted by swing

Grizz,

I wasn't going to interject. However, since my wise council has been sought, I will say this: the Palestinians elected Hamas not because of a support for terrorism, rather because Hamas is the only organization capable and willing to provide health care, food, after-school resources, etc. Hamas is also known for their anti-corruption campaign.

By saying that everyone who voted for Hamas, supports terrorism is like saying, "everyone who voted for Bush supports the Iraq War." And we know that polls display otherwise.

Hamas will eventually change their rhetoric, and become a viable and constructive political tool for the Palestinians. They will acknowledge Israel as a state, and offer a cease fire. If you know anything about the ME (which it is obvious you do not) one must remember that 30 years ago, Israel vehemently opposed anything mentioning Palestinian statehood, and murdered thousands of Palestinian Muslims and Christians. History is repeating itself.

Not sure what all your credentials are, but I disagree with most of your statement. It is likely true that some voters who voted for hamas did so in part b/c they were sick of the corruptions and failures of the ruling fatah. Nevertheless, hamas is a terror organization, responsible for hundreds of suicide bombings and thousands of terror attacks. The people that voted for them can't be given a "pass" simply b/c hamas may be good at providing health care and after school resources (like suicide kindergarten camps). Hell, I'm sure hitler was very efficient at bringing around the german economy etc., but what was he really?

As far as your statement that Israel vehemently opposed statehood for palestinians, so did Jordan and Egypt at the time. Further, we can see from the last 5 or so years why Israel was opposed to it, the "state" is used as a base to slaughter Israelies.

You might be right that eventually hamas may change it's rhetoric. Arafat did the same thing too. He died a terrorist, and hamas will always be a terrorist organization.

[swing]

Originally Posted by kis55

Not sure what all your credentials are, but I disagree with most of your statement. It is likely true that some voters who voted for hamas did so in part b/c they were sick of the corruptions and failures of the ruling fatah. Nevertheless, hamas is a terror organization, responsible for hundreds of suicide bombings and thousands of terror attacks. The people that voted for them can't be given a "pass" simply b/c hamas may be good at providing health care and after school resources (like suicide kindergarten camps). Hell, I'm sure hitler was very efficient at bringing around the german economy etc., but what was he really?

As far as your statement that Israel vehemently opposed statehood for palestinians, so did Jordan and Egypt at the time. Further, we can see from the last 5 or so years why Israel was opposed to it, the "state" is used as a base to slaughter Israelies.

You might be right that eventually hamas may change it's rhetoric. Arafat did the same thing too. He died a terrorist, and hamas will always be a terrorist organization.

I speak arabic, know the history and culture exceptionally well, and have travelled throughout the region extensively due to my field of study (Middle Eastern Studies). I never denied that Hamas is considered an terrorist organization. However, you forgot to mention that for every 1 Israeli civilian killed, there are 3 Palestinian civilians killed by Israel. Just as one can make the claim that Hamas is a terrorist organization, the like can be said concerning Israel and their state sponsored terrorism.

When did Misr oppose a Filistini state? Have you forgotten the Arab/Israeli War, the Jama'at Islamiyyah, and Ikhwan Islamiyyah that have fought for a Palestinian state? Territorial divisions were a source of tension between various Muslim states that claimed mutually exclusive rights to the same territories. Urdan and Sureeya, for example, early after their independence both set their eyes on reconstituting larger Sureea, while Urdan also maintained a claim to Filistine, and Misr over As-Sudan. Therefore, this "opposition" towards a Palestinian statehood was brief, and was primarily due to territorial claims.

The Palestinians must first concern themselves with a political party that will serve THEIR best interest, NOT Israels or The United States. And among all political factions, Hamas has demonstrated on numerous occassions they are the party that can fulfill that need. This will partly entail an eventual change of rhetoric (albeit reluctant) just as Fatah, and the PLO executed.

The people of Filistine possess every right to determine their leaders, just as the Israelis chose a "butcher" (Ariel Sharon) as theirs. Presently, Israel is coasting on survival mode, and another 10 years of the intifada will be calaminous for both Filistine and Israel.

[oldtimer]

Explain this to me Grizz, why is Hamas considered a terrorist orgnization while the Israeli government is not?

The number of Palastinian civilians killed are more than double those of Israel, yet, we choose to say that the Israeli government is ligit, while Hamas is not.

In my opinion, Hamas is in the wrong with killing people blindly like that, and it's a shit act, but saying "Is it ok to say pali shit heads" while not saying "Israeli government shit heads" is bullshit.

P.S. Notice that I said "Israeli government" not "Israelis".

[Grizzly]

Hey, look, it turned into a pretty decent thread! Cool.

[Joe West]

israels causing way more trouble for us than any good. keep on saying that can take iran out with a nuclear strike etc.... how about shutting the fuck up? if israel attacks, they drag us into it. anyone want that?

i sure as hell dont, and all the drafted kids and there parents prolly wont either. talking about a upwards trend in anti-semitism....

[Grizzly]

Originally Posted by oldtimer

Explain this to me Grizz, why is Hamas considered a terrorist orgnization while the Israeli government is not?

The number of Palastinian civilians killed are more than double those of Israel, yet, we choose to say that the Israeli government is ligit, while Hamas is not.

In my opinion, Hamas is in the wrong with killing people blindly like that, and it's a shit act, but saying "Is it ok to say pali shit heads" while not saying "Israeli government shit heads" is bullshit.

P.S. Notice that I said "Israeli government" not "Israelis".

Probably for the same reason that if I take your wallet, I'm a thief, but if the US gov't takes my wallet they are just exacting taxes. It's a matter of legitimacy, I guess.

[Kayz]

Originally Posted by swing

Grizz,

, I will say this: the Palestinians elected Hamas not because of a support for terrorism, rather because Hamas is the only organization capable and willing to provide health care, food, after-school resources, etc. .

...with what money??? Palestine has no oil. Iran and Syria will fund the suicide bombers and the Jihad, but they have shown no interest in backing Hamas' political faction. The US and the EU will yank all aid, of which the US contributions make up 50%+ ($900 million).

We saw today that the Hamas leaders are already pleading with INT'L community to keep the aid in place. All of a sudden Hamas wants to negotiate with the US and the EU. The US is demanding that Hamas denounce all acts of terror and also recognize Isreal as a sovereign state. A spokesman for Hamas said today that that will NEVER happen!!!!! In fact he demanded that Israel change it's flag. LOL

Regardless, it will be interesting to see how this plays out in the near future.

[Kayz]

Originally Posted by oldtimer

Explain this to me Grizz, why is Hamas considered a terrorist orgnization while the Israeli government is not?

The number of Palastinian civilians killed are more than double those of Israel, yet, we choose to say that the Israeli government is ligit, while Hamas is not.
".

Israel just has bigger and badder weapons. The palestinians have rocks and they just can't compete.

Also, most of the attacks by Isreal (at least in recent years), has been a direct response to a suicide bombing carried out by Hamas on Isreali soil. Palestine and Hamas have purposely targeted Isreali citizens exclusively; whereas Israel has countered these attacks with the assassination of the bombers family (who are more than proud for their loved one to become a martyr) and Hamas leaders. "Innocent" Palestinians have been killed, which is unfortunate, but it is reality.

[swing]

Originally Posted by Kayz

Israel just has bigger and badder weapons. The palestinians have rocks and they just can't compete.

Also, most of the attacks by Isreal (at least in recent years), has been a direct response to a suicide bombing carried out by Hamas on Isreali soil. Palestine and Hamas have purposely targeted Isreali citizens exclusively; whereas Israel has countered these attacks with the assassination of the bombers family (who are more than proud for their loved one to become a martyr) and Hamas leaders. "Innocent" Palestinians have been killed, which is unfortunate, but it is reality.

The Palestinians only have rocks, yet they are bankrupting Israel. You forget, Israel began this war by stealing Palestinian homes.

Just as its an "accident" when Israel shoots a rocket into a five story apartment housing more than one hundred occupants in order to kill2 militants. The same rings true when the Palestinian suicide bomber denotates his bomb at an Israeli checkpoint, or bus that transports military recruits.

[swing]

Originally Posted by Kayz

...with what money??? Palestine has no oil. Iran and Syria will fund the suicide bombers and the Jihad, but they have shown no interest in backing Hamas' political faction. The US and the EU will yank all aid, of which the US contributions make up 50%+ ($900 million).

We saw today that the Hamas leaders are already pleading with INT'L community to keep the aid in place. All of a sudden Hamas wants to negotiate with the US and the EU. The US is demanding that Hamas denounce all acts of terror and also recognize Isreal as a sovereign state. A spokesman for Hamas said today that that will NEVER happen!!!!! In fact he demanded that Israel change it's flag. LOL

Regardless, it will be interesting to see how this plays out in the near future.

Hamas has received numerous funds from Iran, Syria, Lebanon, and a host of other countries, business, organizations, and individuals. The United States, has given approximately than $1.5 billion in aid to the Palestinians since 1993. Of that, roughly $380 million last year to the Palestinians. The bulk of it -- $225 million -- was distributed via the U.S. Agency for International Development. The Palestinian Authority got $70 million, and $88 million went to the UN body that helps Palestinian refugees, chiefly by running schools and health care facilities, according to the State Department. For 2006, the United States had budgeted $234 million in assistance to the Palestinians. I don't have any clue where you obtained your figures. The EU provided approximately $615 million in 2005.

Iran and Syria would gladly support the political aspirations of Hamas, they have and will. Either you have forgotten, or are simply unaware that Iran and Iraq were among the most loyal supporters of a Palestinian state. They have a common agenda, and a common foe.

And why should Hamas renounce violence, while Israel continues to build ILLEGAL settlements on Palestinian land? That's like someone violently "displacing" you from your home, and doing nothing about it.

[Kayz]

I did not phrase that well at all. The $900 million figure was the approximate TOTAL aid (depending on who you listen to, the amount of Aid that Palestine receives varies greatly) that Palestine typically receives from all countries who provide aid. I did not mean that the US donates that much to Palestine alone. You are correct on the $234 million in US aid. I got the 50% number from Wolf Blitzer on CNN who was talking about this the other night.

I'm off to bed, but we'll continue this discussion tomorrow.

[swing]

no problem. i'm off to bed myself...to be continued

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by oldtimer

Explain this to me Grizz, why is Hamas considered a terrorist orgnization while the Israeli government is not?

The number of Palastinian civilians killed are more than double those of Israel, yet, we choose to say that the Israeli government is ligit, while Hamas is not.

In my opinion, Hamas is in the wrong with killing people blindly like that, and it's a shit act, but saying "Is it ok to say pali shit heads" while not saying "Israeli government shit heads" is bullshit.

P.S. Notice that I said "Israeli government" not "Israelis".

Very good point.

It is interesting, also, to note that if someone is "anti-Israel" or "anti-zionist" then automatically you are considered to be an anti-semitic.

What a farse!

Israel a country, and Zionism is a politically philosophy. They are not people.
Incidentally, I know of plenty of Jews that are 100% against Israel.

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by swing

You forget, Israel began this war by stealing Palestinian homes.

Palistinian homes, farms, businesses, Syria's land and fresh water supply, Egypts oil, the list of Israel's thefts is long.

With all that stealing, one wonders why they are the recipient of the LARGEST amount of US foriegn aid? 4 BILLION a year!