Are there still any Bush supporters here?

[Grizzly]

SCRedneck, are you a monarchist? You sure do wish to ascribe an awful lot of power to one man.

[Desibaba]

While i wouldnt call myself a republican or a democrat for that matter i do think people criticize bush a lot more than he needs.Yes hes made mistakes but at the same time i dont think any president of this country ever had to make the kind of decisions he has had to.And armchair quarterbacking is easy for anyone.Although the fact that he is close buddies with the saudi royal family probably hurts his reputation a bit.

[oldtimer]

Originally Posted by Desibaba

While i wouldnt call myself a republican or a democrat for that matter i do think people criticize bush a lot more than he needs.Yes hes made mistakes but at the same time i dont think any president of this country ever had to make the kind of decisions he has had to.And armchair quarterbacking is easy for anyone.Although the fact that he is close buddies with the saudi royal family probably hurts his reputation a bit.

What decisions are you talking about, invading Iraq?, allowing torturing of prisoners or defending the dreadful Guantanamu bay prison?

War on Afghanistan - everyone supported him, no questions asked, but the things done afterwards are just plain madness. The subtle ways that his current government follows are just despicable. What annoys me most is that the government says things, and does opposite.

For crying out loud, look at Iraq, it's civil war in there...

[dennis]

Yes I voted for Bush... i do not agree with all of his decisions...40 % of Americans aprove of him this week anyways.I do agree that we need to fight the terrorist's on their soil not ours.I do not think we are killing enough of them though quickly enough.I think we need to step up the military action and be more agressive and flush everyone of those islamic freaks out into the open and blow their heads off..that way we do not have to contain them and torture them !

[oldtimer]

Originally Posted by dennis

Yes I voted for Bush... i do not agree with all of his decisions...40 % of Americans aprove of him this week anyways.I do agree that we need to fight the terrorist's on their soil not ours.I do not think we are killing enough of them though quickly enough.I think we need to step up the military action and be more agressive and flush everyone of those islamic freaks out into the open and blow their heads off..that way we do not have to contain them and torture them !

Get off your high horse Dennis, really, this is getting old.

And why aren't you in Iraq since you seem to be a warrior on the Internet?

[Bob Smith]

Originally Posted by oldtimer

What decisions are you talking about, invading Iraq?, allowing torturing of prisoners

Define torture. Some people, including a lot of the liberals in the US, believe that playing loud music is considered torture. Thats bullshit. Torture is losing a hand, or getting beaten, not some loud music or being deprived of sleep.

defending the dreadful Guantanamu bay prison?

I think the govt should decide specifically what theyre going to do with the prisoners there so they can get to trial, otherwise I see nothing with Gitmo. No torture, none of that crap.

[greyowl]

"Of course the common people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lacking in patriotism and exposing the country to greater danger."

-- Herman Goering at his Nuremberg trial

[Kayz]

Originally Posted by greyowl

"Of course the common people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lacking in patriotism and exposing the country to greater danger."

-- Herman Goering at his Nuremberg trial

“Never let the enemy pick the battle site.”

--General George S. Patton.

"In war the only sure defense is offense, and the efficiency of the offense depends on the warlike souls of those conducting it."

--General George S. Patton

[greyowl]

Originally Posted by Kayz

--General George S. Patton.



--General George S. Patton

"Following the Allied liberation of North Africa in November 1942, Patton, warning of a Jewish conspiracy to "take over" Morocco andthe need to appease Arab public opinion, persuaded General Eisenhower to oppose abolishing the anti-Jewish legislation that the Vichy regime had imposed in the region, or even releasing local Jews who were being held in forced labor camps. Eisenhower's recommendations in turn were endorsed by Secretary of War Henry Stimson, and soon "set the tone for future American wartime policies on the entire Middle East."

After the war, it was Patton who "set the tone for army policies and behavior" toward the Holocaust survivors who were languishing in Displaced Persons camps in the American zone of occupation. Patton hated the Jews, denouncing them as "animals" and "a sub-human species without any of the cultural or social refinements of our time." Such attitudes inevitably filtered down to the officers and soldiers in charge of the camps. The treatment of the DPs was so poor that presidential envoy Earl Harrison, after touring the camps in 1945, reported that "We appear to be treating the Jews as the Nazis treated them except that we do not exterminate them." When President Truman ordered Eisenhower to improve treatment of the DPs, a furious Patton wrote in his diary: "Harrison and his ilk believe that the Jew is a human being, which he is not, and this applies particularly to the Jew DPs, who are lower than animals."

Dr. Rafael Medoff

[Kayz]

Jonathan F. Keiler (Correspondence, July 18) asserts that "there is no evidence that [General George S. Patton]'s anti-Semitism, even if it exceeded the usual country-club variety, affected his conduct during the war."

--Dr. Rafael Medoff (taken from the same letter you just quoted).


The only time Patton ever slowed down was when his 3rd Army liberated the Nazi Concentration camp at Buchenwald. When he saw what the Germans had done to the Jews and Gypsies of Europe he was so disgusted that he immediately enacted a strict policy forcing all German citizens in neighboring cities and towns to tour the camps to witness the result of their hateful nationalism. Other generals adopted Patton's policy upon liberating other concentration camps.

Later, in acting as a military governor he spoke of other violations of principle, "Today we received orders . . . in which we were told to give the Jews special accommodations. If for Jews, why not Catholics, Mormons, etc? We are also turning over to the French several hundred thousand prisoners of war to be used as slave labor in France. It is amusing to recall that we fought the Revolution in defense of the rights of man and the Civil War to abolish slavery and have now gone back on both principles."

He spoke out many times when it was unpopular to do so - against friends and foes, but mostly against politics and injustices - of favoring one group of people over another and against those whom he thought were not doing their job. His units were invariably green, and made into veteran units in a matter of short weeks and did the job of what multiple more experienced armies could not do in months.

[Desibaba]

Personally i supported the war on afghanistan.But the one on Iraq is just like opening a can of worms on a gigantic scale.Despite all the time and money the US has spent on Iraq everyday i go online and i read about countless troops and civlilians being killed but at the same time in my opinion either you dont start a war at all or if you do start one you have to go all the way.If kerry had won im sure he would have pulled the troops out and changing presidents in the middle of a war certainly isnt a good idea if you ask me.

[oldtimer]

Originally Posted by Bob Smith

Define torture. Some people, including a lot of the liberals in the US, believe that playing loud music is considered torture. Thats bullshit. Torture is losing a hand, or getting beaten, not some loud music or being deprived of sleep.


I think the govt should decide specifically what theyre going to do with the prisoners there so they can get to trial, otherwise I see nothing with Gitmo. No torture, none of that crap.

Read the letter sent by Juma Al-Doasri to his lawyer, read about nurse "Irish" and nurse "Swedish". Tell me, why do most prisoners released from Guantanamu lose one third of their weight?, why are there so many sucide attempts?, why does it have this very notorious reputation?

In the history of the US, it has always been held so high, I remember when my uncles used to live there I've always heard about that country, and how individual rights are respected above all, I quote something that got stuck in my head since I was a child because it wow'd me "if I had a car accident with the prisedent and it was his mistake, I can take him to court if he refuses to pay for the damages", these were things that we can only see in movies or hear about.

In my entire life, I have never felt so free, so bold, and so confident like when I am in the US, I knew that I - the individual - can oppose the entire government if I had the right, that I - the individual - can express myself 100% freely without fear, that I - the individual - can pray in any religion right in front of the whitehouse, and no one would say a single thing to me.

I remember when my uncle told me that when you get pulled over by police, the officer would keep saying "sir" at the end of every sentence, I remember when my Aunt sued a company there when she used to live there, and her lawyer was a Jewish man who was proud of helping her because she was right, because she was in the land of the free, where you as an individual, have rights more than anyone/anything else, it did not matter that she was Arab or that she was Muslim.

But now, where did all this go?, the border protection officer would talk to my colleague in a very rude way like he was some sort of trash, the US government has taken over civil librities and you - the individual - are having your rights taken away from you little by little. Yeah, sure, maybe you're not feeling it now, maybe it's the beginning now and only us "towel heads" are feeling the heat, but believe my friend, it always starts like this with profiling, then it spreads to include everyone.

I swear I would choose being detained by the US government 100 times before being detained by any other government If I had to choose when I was young and crazy, but now, the thought of being detained by the US government is a nightmare to me and to many people like me who are Muslims. The peaceful people like me are the only ones that are scared of the US government, but the terrorist type are not. The goal was to scare them with all these new controls, torture, and wars, but the US government used the wrong weapon with the wrong enemy, instead, the peaceful are the ones who got impacted the most.

Many Americans are saying that the government is doing what it's doing to preserve your way of living, so that you can save your freedom, is this really what is happening, is your freedom not impacted since 9/11, largely, by your own government's actions?
Where is privacy?, where is freedom of speech (at least I know I don't have it in the US anymore)?, where is democracy (also gone from me in the US)?
You guys always say that you don't want the terrorists to win, that you don't want them to change the way you live, is this the case; is your way of living not affected?

Sorry for the long rant...

[Kayz]

Originally Posted by oldtimer

Read the letter sent by Juma Al-Doasri to his lawyer, read about nurse "Irish" and nurse "Swedish". Tell me, why do most prisoners released from Guantanamu lose one third of their weight?, why are there so many sucide attempts?, why does it have this very notorious reputation?

In the history of the US, it has always been held so high, I remember when my uncles used to live there I've always heard about that country, and how individual rights are respected above all, I quote something that got stuck in my head since I was a child because it wow'd me "if I had a car accident with the prisedent and it was his mistake, I can take him to court if he refuses to pay for the damages", these were things that we can only see in movies or hear about.

In my entire life, I have never felt so free, so bold, and so confident like when I am in the US, I knew that I - the individual - can oppose the entire government if I had the right, that I - the individual - can express myself 100% freely without fear, that I - the individual - can pray in any religion right in front of the whitehouse, and no one would say a single thing to me.

I remember when my uncle told me that when you get pulled over by police, the officer would keep saying "sir" at the end of every sentence, I remember when my Aunt sued a company there when she used to live there, and her lawyer was a Jewish man who was proud of helping her because she was right, because she was in the land of the free, where you as an individual, have rights more than anyone/anything else, it did not matter that she was Arab or that she was Muslim.

But now, where did all this go?, the border protection officer would talk to my colleague in a very rude way like he was some sort of trash, the US government has taken over civil librities and you - the individual - are having your rights taken away from you little by little. Yeah, sure, maybe you're not feeling it now, maybe it's the beginning now and only us "towel heads" are feeling the heat, but believe my friend, it always starts like this with profiling, then it spreads to include everyone.

I swear I would choose being detained by the US government 100 times before being detained by any other government If I had to choose when I was young and crazy, but now, the thought of being detained by the US government is a nightmare to me and to many people like me who are Muslims. The peaceful people like me are the only ones that are scared of the US government, but the terrorist type are not. The goal was to scare them with all these new controls, torture, and wars, but the US government used the wrong weapon with the wrong enemy, instead, the peaceful are the ones who got impacted the most.

Many Americans are saying that the government is doing what it's doing to preserve your way of living, so that you can save your freedom, is this really what is happening, is your freedom not impacted since 9/11, largely, by your own government's actions?
Where is privacy?, where is freedom of speech (at least I know I don't have it in the US anymore)?, where is democracy (also gone from me in the US)?
You guys always say that you don't want the terrorists to win, that you don't want them to change the way you live, is this the case; is your way of living not affected?

Sorry for the long rant...

You make some decent points Oldtimer, and I certainly respect your opinion since you are "on the other side" of the fence so to speak. You experience the racism first hand. But can you honestly look at yourself and say "this racism/stereotyping of Arabs is completely unjustified"??? I doubt you can. We were attacked by Arabs...Saudis of all people. We must be vigilant in protecting ourselves or our government is not doing it's primary job, which is to protect it's citizens. I fully agree that there are probably some border guards who are on a high horse and are assholes for no reason...cops are the same way. But not everyone is like what you describe.

Your last paragraph is right on the money. IMO, the terrorists have won to a certaindegree because they have changed our basic way of life. but at the same time, I don't want to keep living the way I was if it means that we are vulnerable for an attack and 3000 more of my countrymen are going to die in the name of Allah.

And I honestly don't think that our rights will be stripped away and our democracy will be lost. Why?? Because of check and balances within our government. Bush can try to take away as many rights as he wants, but if the US supreme court and the Congress disagree, it's not happening...end of story. The US Supreme Court has already shot down several of Bush's ideas and ruled them to be unconstitutional. It would be extremely difficult for 1 man to gain total power of this country...he is always checked. And if someone does step to the plate, he then must face the American people, whom are protected under the 2nd amendment. In fact, the whole purpose of the 2nd amendment is NOT to protect people from people, but rather to protecte people from their government. Thomas Jefferson once said:

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that you will not need it until they [the government] try to take it from you".

The US is still the best place to live in the world. Immigrants are still flocking here in record numbers to pursue the "American Dream", which is alive and well.

[oldtimer]

Originally Posted by Kayz

You experience the racism first hand. But can you honestly look at yourself and say "this racism/stereotyping of Arabs is completely unjustified"??? I doubt you can.

It is 100% justified, and I for one agrees with profiling 100%, but I don't agree with the war in Iraq, and I don't agree with the torture of prisoners or the constant fear that I have to live with for being a Muslim.

Having said that, I think that Americans are some of the most tolerant people in the world. The attack on the twin towers by Saudis does in fact have a lot of implications, and I thought that it would be much worse now than what it actually is five years after the incident.

[Bob Smith]

Originally Posted by oldtimer

Read the letter sent by Juma Al-Doasri to his lawyer, read about nurse "Irish" and nurse "Swedish". Tell me, why do most prisoners released from Guantanamu lose one third of their weight?,

My guess is because they dont eat as well outside the gates as they do inside. The prisoners eat better than the US troops stations at Gitmo and it costs a hell of a lot more to feed them because the US govt is providing them meals that are acceptable to Muslims.

why does it have this very notorious reputation?

Honestly, I think its because the majority of the world media hates the US. There were reports a year or a few years ago about US troops flushing a Koran and spitting on it, etc. Nearly every one of those claims was found to be made up by the prisoner, a complete falsehood. But it got the response that the prisoners wanted...the world hating America. Bad Americans for doing that...when it never happened!


Ten Facts about Guantanamo Bay (released by the US Dept of Defense) 1.The detainees at the GuantanamoBay detention facility include bin Laden’s bodyguards, bomb makers, terrorist trainers and facilitators, and other suspected terrorists.

2.More moneyis spent on meals for detainees than on the U.S. troops stationed there. Detainees are offered up to 4,200 calories a day. The average weight gain per detainee is 20 pounds.

3.The Muslim call to prayer sounds five times a day. Arrows point detainees toward the holy city of Mecca.

4.Detainees receive medical, dental, psychiatric, and optometric care at U.S. taxpayers’ expense. In 2005, there were 35 teeth cleanings, 91 cavities filled, and 174 pairs of glasses issued.

5.The International Committee of the Red Cross visits detainees at the facility every few months. More than 20,000 messages between detainees and their families have been exchanged.

6.Recreation activities include basketball, volleyball, soccer, pingpong, and board games. High-top sneakers are provided.

7.Departing detainees receive a Koran, a jean jacket, a white T-shirt, a pair of blue jeans, high-topsneakers, a gym bag of toiletries, and a pillow and blanket for the flight home.

8.Entertainment includes Arabic language TV shows, including World Cup soccer games. The library has 3,500 volumes available in 13 languages — the most requested book is “Harry Potter.”

9.Guantanamo is the most transparent detention facility in the history of warfare. The Joint Task Force has hosted more than 1,000 journalists from more than 40 countries.

10.In 2005, Amnesty International stated that “the detention facility at GuantanamoBay has become the gulag of our times.”