UAW might not be the problem after all

[Grizzly]

I was reading an article regarding the car business in Playboy over the weekend. In this article it mentioned that the 2005(?) cost of the UAW legacies and their benefits was 5.6 Billion dollars. Damn those union workers and their posh contracts.

But wait! In that same year, the legacy costs for the white collar workers (management, engineers, clerical, etc.) was 7 billion dollars. Double-

How come only the union is blamed? Seems to me that those suit wearing fucks who spend more time golfing than working have 1.3 billion dollars more to answer for.

[Bob Smith]

Originally Posted by Grizzly

How come only the union is blamed?

They arent the only ones blamed. Playboy is definitely a liberal magazine, so its no surprise that they would be against management. There is enough blame to go around on why the American automakers are a dying breed. The unions and their inflated workers salaries (Id like $60k/yr to screw in 4 bolts), the incredible cost of post-retirement health coverage, car designs that no one wants, mediocre build quality, they all play a role.

Management is liable for agreeing to the contracts, though its unlikely that they had much choice. If the UAW goes on strike, then the companies will fall apart very quickly and everyone loses their job.

The American automakers are dying a slow death at the hands of the Japs and Koreans. Since about 1975, the Americans have gone from a combined market share of 75% down to its current level of about 55%. They simply cant compete with the quality and styling of "foreign" cars (that are usually made in America).

[Grizzly]

Originally Posted by Bob Smith

, mediocre build quality, they all play a role.

You might want to read the recent quality reports. American cars, specifically Cadillac and Buick, smoked those chinks.


edit- Oh, and the writer wasn't a Playboy writer. He writes for one of the major car magazines. I can't remember which one because the only way in which I resemble white trash, car junkie, hillbillies is that I'm white. So, I don't know the names of those hillbilly rags.

[Kayz]

I've said all along that the people at the top of GM share much of the blame along with the union workers. GM/Delphi/Ford is fucked up from the top down and the inside out. I just get pissed off at the union workers because of the "entitlements" they feel they are OWED just because their grand pappy worked thier in the '50s.

It was nice to hear that the CEO of GM is taking a 50% paycutt and the other execs are taking a minimum 30% pay cut. I think that is only right if you are going to ask your workers to do the same.

[Grizzly]

Originally Posted by Kayz

It was nice to hear that the CEO of GM is taking a 50% paycutt and the other execs are taking a minimum 30% pay cut. I think that is only right if you are going to ask your workers to do the same.

Damn skippy he should!!! However, despite running in the red, AGAIN, they decided last year that the company was "above threshold" and he was rewarded with several millions of dollars in bonuses. To the tune of a total compensation of somewheres between 7 and 11 millions.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that SOME people aren't entitled to make that much money. I am, however, saying that the CEO of a company who is consistantly losing money is doing a pretty shitty job and, thus, is not entitled to bonuses or millions of dollars base salary. If you or I lost the company money on a daily basis, we would be fired. This fuckhead gets extra money.

That, my friend, is bullshit.

[Kayz]

Originally Posted by Grizzly

Damn skippy he should!!! However, despite running in the red, AGAIN, they decided last year that the company was "above threshold" and he was rewarded with several millions of dollars in bonuses. To the tune of a total compensation of somewheres between 7 and 11 millions.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that SOME people aren't entitled to make that much money. I am, however, saying that the CEO of a company who is consistantly losing money is doing a pretty shitty job and, thus, is not entitled to bonuses or millions of dollars base salary. If you or I lost the company money on a daily basis, we would be fired. This fuckhead gets extra money.

That, my friend, is bullshit.

True, but it is more complicated than that in the case of GM and Delphi's Execs. Delphi for example, has many branches overseas that are very very profitable...it is the US branches that are losing money and it is those figures that skew the earnings reports into the red. Same with GM. The plants here in the states lose their ass, but their foreing subsidiaries make tons of money...and that is how these execs justify their stupid ass bonuses. When it comes time to pay themselves, they look at THE BIG PICTURE. When it comes time to report earnings and re-do contracts for their workers, they are very selective in what data they truly use.

Anybody who runs a business or knows anything about accounting knows that a good CPA can really make the numbers say anything they want (see Enron). Ultimately this is illegal and they will get caught, but the numbers are rarely accurate. It is not hard for a company to bulk up or bulk down earnings depending on how the corporation is structured.

I don't believe for one minute that GM lost $4 billion + this past year...I just don't buy that at all.

[Kayz]

Also...look at GMAC, General Motors financing unit (GMCard). They posted massive profits last year, but this is "totally different" from the automotive division. General motors will not rob from Peter (GMAC) to pay Paul (Car division)...and I don't blame them.

I don't think GM is in quite as bad of shape as they would like the world to think. Don't get me wrong, they have serious problems that need to be addressed, but they will survive just fine. They are too big to go out of business.

[Bob Smith]

Originally Posted by Grizzly

You might want to read the recent quality reports. American cars, specifically Cadillac and Buick, smoked those chinks.

And what about Ford, GM, Pontiac, Dodge, Hummer, Chevy, Chrysler and Jeep?

[Bob Smith]

Originally Posted by Grizzly

You might want to read the recent quality reports. American cars, specifically Cadillac and Buick, smoked those chinks.

Also, one year doesnt make a good comparison (though at least those two brands are/might be moving in the right direction).

According to the Consumer Reports (a 100% independent organization) 2006 Buying Guide list of best and worst used cars (based on reliability):

Of the 64 best used cars:
Only 7 are American. (11%)
57 are Japanese. (89%)

Of the 35 worst used cars:
21 are American. (60%)
0 are Japanese. (0%)
9 are German (26%)
3 are English (9%)

Using long-term data, it seems that the reliability trend is pretty clear on both sides of the fence.

[Kayz]

.....and let's not forget that Buick has probably the lowest sales of all GM lines. So low in fact, that GM has talked about getting rid of the Buick name altogether. Even though Buick has gotten high marks in recent years, their cars do not sell. Why is this??

Is it that the cars are ugly?? Is it that Buick is often associated with old fuckers?? Is it that GM has done a piss poor job marketing this line???

The problem with Cadillac (which is one of my favorite lines) is that the majority of individuals cannot afford them. Most base model Caddy's start at $40K, which puts them in the upper class of automotive manufacturers and therefore are unobtainable for most young Americans.

[Bob Smith]

Good call on the Buicks, Kayz. I had an late-80s LeSabre with the 3600 engine that ran awesome and was very comfortable, since it was basically a livingroom couch on wheels. But I, and most others, referred to it as a granpa car. You hit the nail on the head that even though Buicks might be some of the highest quality American cars produced, that they are simply old fart cars. They dont make anything that most younger people would want to buy.

Cadillac, besides being too expensive for most people to afford, is also a line that is typically limited to old people. How many of you have heard an older relative say something like "When I retire, I want to buy a nice Caddy."? Probably all of you, I know theres at least a few in my family that have said it.

[Kayz]

Originally Posted by Bob Smith

Cadillac, besides being too expensive for most people to afford, is also a line that is typically limited to old people. How many of you have heard an older relative say something like "When I retire, I want to buy a nice Caddy."? Probably all of you, I know theres at least a few in my family that have said it.

My fiance is a real estate agent, and she's starting to make some nice money. I always joke with her and ask her "when are you going to buy a Lincoln or Caddy" because I swear to God every successful agent at her office drives either a Continental or a Deville.

She wants to be the more hip/young agent and eventually get a BMW or something like that. But she's realistic and I think has opted for a new Honda Accord next year after we get married. While she wants to play the part of a wealthy real estate agent (and she's not yet), she has enough common sense to not live beyond her means.

[Bob Smith]

Originally Posted by Kayz

While she wants to play the part of a wealthy real estate agent (and she's not yet), she has enough common sense to not live beyond her means.

Good for her (and for you). Just be sure to tell her not to buy a new one.

[Kayz]

Originally Posted by Bob Smith

Good for her (and for you). Just be sure to tell her not to buy a new one.

We'll probably get her a new one with a navigation system in it. She has zero sense of direction and is always calling me at work like "...honey...how do I get to main street from 2nd street??" Plus, we live outside a big city that is nothing but one way streets and she does not know her way around at all, but she's down town all the time showing properties. You'd think after a few months you'd pick up the basics, but not her!!!!

I don't want her getting lost in a bad part of town...and there are plenty of those around here.

Besides....she's a realtor and a used car is not a good status symbol.

[Bob Smith]

Originally Posted by Kayz

Besides....she's a realtor and a used car is not a good status symbol.

And a $25k car loan is?

Its not like you cant have aftermarket nav systems installed in, say, a 2 year old Accord. Why pay $8-10k in depreciation when you dont have to?

[Kayz]

Originally Posted by Bob Smith

And a $25k car loan is?

Its not like you cant have aftermarket nav systems installed in, say, a 2 year old Accord. Why pay $8-10k in depreciation when you dont have to?

Hey...I agree with ya'. But I have to keep her happy too!!!

[Grizzly]

Originally Posted by Kayz

Hey...I agree with ya'. But I have to keep her happy too!!!

Tell her you'll buy her a floor length mink with the saved 8k.

[Kayz]

Originally Posted by Grizzly

Tell her you'll buy her a floor length mink with the saved 8k.

yeah, but then she needs a nice set of pearls to really set the coat off!!

Trust me....it just doesn't work that way.

No she's a cool girl and isn't high maintenance at all. The reason for buying a new honda accord is that Accord's do not depreciate $8K the minute you drive them off the lot. They are holding there value very very well right now. We went to the Honda dealership about 3-4 months ago, and they had some USED 2004 Accords that were more expensive than the brand new 2005's that they were trying to get rid of...go figure.

My Uncle has a dealers license and he goes to auctions all the time. He was telling me that Honda Accords and Toyota's Camry's are almost impossible to get at auctions because they go for such a high price.

Look on ebay. An Accord that is 2 years old with 30,000 miles can fetch upwards of $18-$19K depending on the model and options. It is almost cheaper to buy a new one.