What's up with Islam?

[swing]

Weatherlite, it is most refreshing to hear someone speak who actually knows about the Middle East. I cannot dispute what you say regarding the bombings, I know absolutely nothing about the subject matter...and therefore admit my ignorance regarding that issue. However, from what you have stated previously, I am compelled to accept your statements.

I have heard this excuse from arabs many times. That, it is permissible to practice homosexuality until one reaches the age of adulthood. There is absolutely no justification in Islamic Law towards this behavior. In arabic we refer to homosexuals as "Luti" (after the people of Lot). Both the Qur'an and ther Prophet Muhammad's traditions clearly forbid this practice. But, I think this is due to the social situations of the country (i.e. it is incredibly expensive to get married). Many fathers require the husband to pay enormous amounts of money and gold for the "mahr" (dowry that is paid to the bride).

I am not familiar with any circumstances where a woman was stoned because her husband committed adultery. However, I do recall during 1 visit to Singapore (which is SE Asia, not the ME) there was a beheading of a man and woman for committing adultery. This requires some elaboration. According to Islamic Law, it is EXTREMELY difficult to prove a woman has committed "zina" (adultery). This was done in order to safeguard the woman's honor by preventing people of falsely accusing a woman of performing the act. According to the Qur'an, my single testimony as a husband is insufficient for my wife to be charged with adultery. Rather, I need 4 witnesses who have actually witnessed the act of penitration occur. And the punishment for adultery is death, regardless if you are a male or female. The only country that continues to practice this huduud (punishment) is Saudi Arabia, and a couple of other countries in South East Asia. Some may ask...why kill someone for committing adultery? The concept is that every individual makes up a community. So by destroying a family, you also destroy the community. I worked for Child Support a one point in time, and witnessed the impact this caused on children and family members first hand.

[Weatherlite]

I'll have to do some research to find the reference to the woman being stoned to death for her husband's transgression. I do know it happened but I don't know the details or which country it was in.

[swing]

Griz, your attitude towards women is far worse than what I've ever known of any arab male to possess.

CyniQ, it is common knowledge that many Forensic Psychologist often enlist the assistance of Sociopaths to capture other Sociopaths. I did not use Bin Laden to justify doctrine, and I can't word it any simpler than to say only a terrorist knows why commit their actions. This is why the US is losing the war on terror, because they refuse to understand the motives.

Take al-Qaida, they are stronger and wealthier than they were prior to 9/11. In 2002 and 2003, Al-Qaida conducted fifteen suicide attacks, more than all the years before 9/11 combined. And the number rises every year, and the same goes for the recruitment.

Again, regarding the Bible: 31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
Moses tells the Israelites to kill every male and all the non-virgin females, but to keep the virgins for themselves.
Is it wrong to commit adultery?
31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

According to the Bible, God commands the Israelites to kill innocent children. Also, Jesus said, "Do not think I have come to destroy the law, no I have come to verify it. Not one single dot, one single iota shall be changed. He who changes it, and encourages others to change it will be considered the least in the kingdom of heaven. However, he who obeys it and encourages other to obey it will be considered the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." Jesus never claimed to eliminate the law, but adhered to other and made others do the same.

If you refuse to provide any evidence to support you wild assertions, then there isn't any point discussing the matter with you. I have provided data to validate nearly every single argument I made. You have yet to do any of this. It is clearly apparent that you do not posses an shred of knowledge regarding the subject matter at hand. Stop embarrassing yourself.

[CyniQ]

Originally Posted by swing

CyniQ, it is common knowledge that many Forensic Psychologist often enlist the assistance of Sociopaths to capture other Sociopaths. I did not use Bin Laden to justify doctrine, and I can't word it any simpler than to say only a terrorist knows why commit their actions. This is why the US is losing the war on terror, because they refuse to understand the motives.

Take al-Qaida, they are stronger and wealthier than they were prior to 9/11. In 2002 and 2003, Al-Qaida conducted fifteen suicide attacks, more than all the years before 9/11 combined. And the number rises every year, and the same goes for the recruitment.

Again, regarding the Bible: 31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
Moses tells the Israelites to kill every male and all the non-virgin females, but to keep the virgins for themselves.
Is it wrong to commit adultery?
31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

According to the Bible, God commands the Israelites to kill innocent children. Also, Jesus said, "Do not think I have come to destroy the law, no I have come to verify it. Not one single dot, one single iota shall be changed. He who changes it, and encourages others to change it will be considered the least in the kingdom of heaven. However, he who obeys it and encourages other to obey it will be considered the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." Jesus never claimed to eliminate the law, but adhered to other and made others do the same.

If you refuse to provide any evidence to support you wild assertions, then there isn't any point discussing the matter with you. I have provided data to validate nearly every single argument I made. You have yet to do any of this. It is clearly apparent that you do not posses an shred of knowledge regarding the subject matter at hand. Stop embarrassing yourself.

First bold: Just because you saw it on Silence of the Lambs doesn't mean it really happens, and certainly doesn't make it common knowledge.

Second: LOL. Further proof that the Qur'an is a blatant ripoff of the Bible! See Surah 33:50 and...
I have been referring to Christian doctrine. I do not deny that God allowed and condoned killing at certain times in the Isrealite history. The scrip in Lev. you cited is in reference to the Isrealites taking revenge on the sons of Midian.

With regard to Christ ending the Mosaic Law. It's stated pretty plainly in Romans 10:4. As I said before. In Matt 26:52 Jesus commanded his followers to lay down the sword. Luke 10:27 says to love your neighbor.

In truth, there is really no reason for Christianity to be on trial here. It's the followers of your prophet that are in the news every day, world wide, even Al Jazeera, blowing unarmed people and chopping their heads off.

Which, by the way, history has been none too kind to Muhammed himself. He is widely reported to have been a sexual pervert, theif, rapist, mass murderer, and assassin.

[Weatherlite]

Originally Posted by CyniQ

In truth, there is really no reason for Christianity to be on trial here. It's the followers of your prophet that are in the news every day, world wide, even Al Jazeera, blowing unarmed people and chopping their heads off.

True. If CNN and Fox News were around during the crusades what would we have seen on the news then? All I'm trying to say is that all organized religions, at one point or another during their history, have a time when there are atrocities committed in their God's name. Doesn't make it right but it happened, happens and will continue to happen.

Originally Posted by CyniQ

Which, by the way, history has been none too kind to Muhammed himself. He is widely reported to have been a sexual pervert, theif, rapist, mass murderer, and assassin.

Theological historians have taken a look at a lot of religions through the years. Of interesting note (for me at least) is Saint Patrick. Yes, the same saint whom many celebrate on St. Patrick's day. Popular history (that which was written by the "winners" of a war or in this case the prevailing religion) tells us that Patrick was a nobleman's son who was captured and cast into slavery by pagans. Over the years he gained freedom and went back to Ireland to help them with their evil ways. He blatantly broke pagan laws and flaunted his Christianity and eventually won over the pagan king and was allowed to preach his beliefs throughout the kingdom. There is also a claim that he converted the entirety of Ireland peacefully.

However, unless you do a lot of digging to find the truth you would never have know that this is mostly a bunch of crap. Yes, much was true (a lot of fiction is based upon fact) In fact, he was much different than we are led to believe. Scholars are still divided as to whether he was born a pagan or a Christian. Some say he was the son of a nobleman and others say his family was of the church. Regardless, new evidence is showing that he was much like any other average kid in those days. He committed numerous sins and partook in various forbidden deeds of the day (forbidden by the church) He wasn't as pure as once thought.

Once he finally began his crusade to convert the pagans he didn't exactly do it nicely either. History does not tell us of the mass slaughtering of those who would not convert does it? It happened though. Did he condone it? Some say yes, others say no. One thing is a fact though...he did nothing to stop it. Never preached against it. Also, he took many of the pagan symbology and history and perverted it to fit his needs and goals of conversion.

Pagan history? How much is written? Not much. Ever wonder why? A few texts still survive and some tell of his crusade to burn all books written by or speaking of the pagan religions of the day. Some books spoke of healing diseases that are still uncurable today. Because they went against his beliefs they were destroyed.

This is just one Christian "saint". I will grant that there are many who deserve the title of Saint but there are far more who did horrible and despicable things in the name of "God".

My point here? No one is perfect and for every reference you can find to say that Islam is bad one can find a reference saying Christianity is bad.

Originally Posted by swing

Take al-Qaida, they are stronger and wealthier than they were prior to 9/11. In 2002 and 2003, Al-Qaida conducted fifteen suicide attacks, more than all the years before 9/11 combined. And the number rises every year, and the same goes for the recruitment.

What really amazes me with this fact is that the majority of recruits and members are middle or upper-middle class people. They are educated and should therefore know the teachings of the Koran (Qur'an...however it's spelled) yet they still buy into the bullshit and commit atrocities.

Originally Posted by swing

According to the Bible, God commands the Israelites to kill innocent children

I'm not a bible thumper and the only time I have ever read a word of it was to verify a passage or to see what a particular parable was about. However, from what I understand and what I have been taught, god only told man to do such acts when the victims deserved it. In one instance it was because they were worshipping a false god. Yes, they were innocent in our minds because they never did anything worth killing them over but god said that worshipping an idol mandated their death. I can never recall ever being taught that god commanded someone's death just for the hell of it. (the only exception to this was when he ordered someone to kill his only son to prove their belief in God....or some shit like that. Before he did it god told him to stop because the fact that he was willing to do it was proof enough)

BTW, just for the record I want toi share that I was raised Catholic. I was an alter-boy for almost 10 years. I received my Confirmation at 13. At 14 I only continued to go to Church when my mother forced me. At 18 I stopped completely.

Interestingly, later that year in college I met my roommates girlfriend. The first time she saw me she was polite and cordial. About an hour later she just started staring at me. After a while I got paranoid and I asked what was up. She said she was mesmerized by my unique aura and that I was a white-witch (found out later she was a Wiccan) and that I was born into it. Never gave that much thought.

At 27 after many many many years of soul searching and research and facing facts I realized that I am a Pagan. I have a set of beliefs. These beliefs have always been present ever since I can remember. Celtic Shamanism is the only path which fits my beliefs.

I am now 32 and have been trying my best to live my life to the standards I try to uphold. I allow my kids to pursue whichever religion they choose. I provide them with any and all information possible so that they may make an informed decision. My 12 y/o is a Catholic. My 14 y/o is still searching and has shown interest in several religions, one is paganism (witchcraft to be specific) but I am worried that she's only into it because it's "cool" and fits with the Goth style her friends are into. My 8y/o son is just who he is. He doesn't give a rats ass either way. What is interesting though is how he has progressed. We don't push him one way or the other and we don't discuss things in front of him unless it's for a lesson or to answer a question. Yet he seems to naturally lean towards paganism (Shamanism specifically). His mannerisms and actions allude to this possibility. I just think that's pretty cool.

Anyway, just wanted to share that with you so that you would know I'm kindof impartial in this thread's original intent. With my experiences I can even provide some interesting insight into both side of the argument too.

[Weatherlite]

Ok, did some research about the stoning issue and found some interesting things!

First, I can't find the exact case I was talking about. I do remember it as being her punished for his sin because it seemed so outrageous. She was stoned to death and he was whipped.

Here's what I don't get....or rather what really confuses me. The Qur'an states that any sex outside of marriage (meaning sex while single or sex with someone other than your spouse) is considered adultery. This adultery is punishable by 80 or 100 lashes. However, some Islamic law makes a different distinction and gives lashes for sex out of wedlock and stoning for extramarital sex. Other Islamic law just uses stoning regardless.

There are exceptions though such as rape. In rape cases the woman is not at fault. Another exception is for slaves or captives. If a man chooses to have sex with a captive or slave then it is not considered adultery (even if he is married) because he OWNS the property! The slave is not committing adultery either even if she is married. BUT, she IS committing adultery if she consents to the sex. So basically, she has to be raped in order for her to NOT commit adultery. But this now becomes a catch 22 because according to the Qur'an she is not being raped because the owner is allowed to do it.

Apparently there was even a large dillema among Arabs way back in the day as to what they should do. I'm not an Islamic historian so if I get it a little wrong I apologize...but basically there was a requirement that you do not "pull out" of a woman for some reason. However, they didm't want to get their captive women pregnant because that would reduce their ransom value so they went to Muhammed and were told that they did not have to pull out and not to worry....they wouldn't get pregnant.

Back to the stoning....more proof about how the non-westernized/progressive states don't treat women as the Qur'an dictates. A woman was recently stoned to death in Afghanistan. Her husband went to Iran for 5 years. When he came back she asked for divorce/separation. Here's where it becomes a bit blurry. The story is that she was cheating on him so she was convicted and stoned to death. However, her lover only received 100 lashes from a whip. Speculation (and some stories from those who knew the husband) is that he made up the accusations in order to have her killed so that he would not have to grant her a divorce which would basically be a HUGE embarrassment to him and his family.

So, the two questions are....why did the two receive different punishments for the same crime? My opinion, because of their different sexes. Also, even if it is true that they committed adultery, where was the proof? According to the Qur'an there must be either 4 witnesses who saw the actual act, the participants must confess or the spouse must make a sworn statement 4 times that it indeed happened and then must make a fifth statement that if he is lying he welcomes the wrath of Allah. I have read far too many cases in which none of this was present and the religious council ruled based upon what they felt would be best (which was usually in favor of the husband).

What I also found interesting though (yet in all of the cases I have read has never been used) was that if the husband made the 5 statements the wife could nullify them by making a counter-statement 4 times and making the same fifth statement.

Also, if 4 witnesses are there watching this act then aren't they then guilty of some sin/crime as well? Shouldn't they be punished too?

[Weatherlite]

BTW, if you want I can provide references in the Qur'an for this stuff. I didn't have them handy at the time but I can find em again and post em if so desired.

[Grizzly]

Originally Posted by swing

Griz, your attitude towards women is far worse than what I've ever known of any arab male to possess.

LOL Is this your stock response? Twice in the same thread. Don't forget to tell Kayz the same thing. We don't want him to feel left out.

[CyniQ]

Originally Posted by Weatherlite

Theological historians have taken a look at a lot of religions through the years. Of interesting note (for me at least) is Saint Patrick. Yes, the same saint whom many celebrate on St. Patrick's day. Popular history (that which was written by the "winners" of a war or in this case the prevailing religion) tells us that Patrick was a nobleman's son who was captured and cast into slavery by pagans. Over the years he gained freedom and went back to Ireland to help them with their evil ways. He blatantly broke pagan laws and flaunted his Christianity and eventually won over the pagan king and was allowed to preach his beliefs throughout the kingdom. There is also a claim that he converted the entirety of Ireland peacefully.

However, unless you do a lot of digging to find the truth you would never have know that this is mostly a bunch of crap. Yes, much was true (a lot of fiction is based upon fact) In fact, he was much different than we are led to believe. Scholars are still divided as to whether he was born a pagan or a Christian. Some say he was the son of a nobleman and others say his family was of the church. Regardless, new evidence is showing that he was much like any other average kid in those days. He committed numerous sins and partook in various forbidden deeds of the day (forbidden by the church) He wasn't as pure as once thought.

Once he finally began his crusade to convert the pagans he didn't exactly do it nicely either. History does not tell us of the mass slaughtering of those who would not convert does it? It happened though. Did he condone it? Some say yes, others say no. One thing is a fact though...he did nothing to stop it. Never preached against it. Also, he took many of the pagan symbology and history and perverted it to fit his needs and goals of conversion.

Pagan history? How much is written? Not much. Ever wonder why? A few texts still survive and some tell of his crusade to burn all books written by or speaking of the pagan religions of the day. Some books spoke of healing diseases that are still uncurable today. Because they went against his beliefs they were destroyed.

This is just one Christian "saint". I will grant that there are many who deserve the title of Saint but there are far more who did horrible and despicable things in the name of "God".

My point here? No one is perfect and for every reference you can find to say that Islam is bad one can find a reference saying Christianity is bad.



What really amazes me with this fact is that the majority of recruits and members are middle or upper-middle class people. They are educated and should therefore know the teachings of the Koran (Qur'an...however it's spelled) yet they still buy into the bullshit and commit atrocities.



I'm not a bible thumper and the only time I have ever read a word of it was to verify a passage or to see what a particular parable was about. However, from what I understand and what I have been taught, god only told man to do such acts when the victims deserved it. In one instance it was because they were worshipping a false god. Yes, they were innocent in our minds because they never did anything worth killing them over but god said that worshipping an idol mandated their death. I can never recall ever being taught that god commanded someone's death just for the hell of it. (the only exception to this was when he ordered someone to kill his only son to prove their belief in God....or some shit like that. Before he did it god told him to stop because the fact that he was willing to do it was proof enough)

BTW, just for the record I want toi share that I was raised Catholic. I was an alter-boy for almost 10 years. I received my Confirmation at 13. At 14 I only continued to go to Church when my mother forced me. At 18 I stopped completely.

Interestingly, later that year in college I met my roommates girlfriend. The first time she saw me she was polite and cordial. About an hour later she just started staring at me. After a while I got paranoid and I asked what was up. She said she was mesmerized by my unique aura and that I was a white-witch (found out later she was a Wiccan) and that I was born into it. Never gave that much thought.

At 27 after many many many years of soul searching and research and facing facts I realized that I am a Pagan. I have a set of beliefs. These beliefs have always been present ever since I can remember. Celtic Shamanism is the only path which fits my beliefs.

I am now 32 and have been trying my best to live my life to the standards I try to uphold. I allow my kids to pursue whichever religion they choose. I provide them with any and all information possible so that they may make an informed decision. My 12 y/o is a Catholic. My 14 y/o is still searching and has shown interest in several religions, one is paganism (witchcraft to be specific) but I am worried that she's only into it because it's "cool" and fits with the Goth style her friends are into. My 8y/o son is just who he is. He doesn't give a rats ass either way. What is interesting though is how he has progressed. We don't push him one way or the other and we don't discuss things in front of him unless it's for a lesson or to answer a question. Yet he seems to naturally lean towards paganism (Shamanism specifically). His mannerisms and actions allude to this possibility. I just think that's pretty cool.

Anyway, just wanted to share that with you so that you would know I'm kindof impartial in this thread's original intent. With my experiences I can even provide some interesting insight into both side of the argument too.

I don't personally believe in, or pray to, "saints". At least, not in the way that most people view them. "St. Patrick" means nothing to me, I'm not Catholic. It's a small wonder to me that you were raised Catholic and became "pagan". They're is really very little difference between the two. Catholism is a mixture of Christianity and various pagan religions. Have any rites that coincide with "Christian" holidays? Winter solstice? All hallows eve? Easter?

I bet you love Metallica, don't you? Of Wolf and Man? Shapeshift LOL. You've been really cool, Weatherlite. So I don't want to insult you or piss you off... But. I can't stand modern day "Celtic" religions. "Celt" is not a race at all, rather they were a group of tribes. Notoriously violent and unruly. The only thing that held the various tribes together was a common priesthood, the Druids. The druids realized that fear of deities was the only influence they had over the population. They desparately wanted to maintain that control. They did this by outlawing the documentation of their religion. Writing down information about rites, customs, and spiritual beliefs was forbidden. Therefore, very little is known about what the Celts believed. And much of it is disputed. So, there can be NO modern day Celtic religion. Those who write current Druidic texts are commiting acts of sacrilege.

By the way, my last name is the same as a village in Britain that contains celtic ruins. Not that it means anything. But I thought I'd add that.

[Grizzly]

Hmmmm, that passage reminds me an awful ot of John Galt's speech in "Atlas Shrugged". You find any commonality between the mystics of mind in your religion and those found in the Druidic class? Certainly a priest, pastor, whatever you call your guy wouldn't be trying to control you through guilt or fear of an OOOG. That wouldn't ever happen.

[CyniQ]

Originally Posted by Grizzly

Hmmmm, that passage reminds me an awful ot of John Galt's speech in "Atlas Shrugged". You find any commonality between the mystics of mind in your religion and those found in the Druidic class? Certainly a priest, pastor, whatever you call your guy wouldn't be trying to control you through guilt or fear of an OOOG. That wouldn't ever happen.

Very good. That's why... I don't have a guy. I read and comprehend the scriptures on my own. That way, when presented with information that doesn't coincide with my current hypothesis. I can weigh the new data against my existing wealth of knowledge. And decide whether or not an adjustment in my thinking is needed.

[Weatherlite]

Originally Posted by CyniQ

It's a small wonder to me that you were raised Catholic and became "pagan". They're is really very little difference between the two. Catholism is a mixture of Christianity and various pagan religions. Have any rites that coincide with "Christian" holidays? Winter solstice? All hallows eve? Easter?

True. That's how Christianity won them over was by adopting the same holidays, moving it a couple of days forward or back, adding in some supposed saint and changing the meaning. But, a lot of other Christian religions branched off of Catholicism so there're more out there that just the one.

Originally Posted by CyniQ

I don't want to insult you or piss you off... But. I can't stand modern day "Celtic" religions. "Celt" is not a race at all, rather they were a group of tribes. Notoriously violent and unruly. The only thing that held the various tribes together was a common priesthood, the Druids. The druids realized that fear of deities was the only influence they had over the population. They desparately wanted to maintain that control. They did this by outlawing the documentation of their religion. Writing down information about rites, customs, and spiritual beliefs was forbidden. Therefore, very little is known about what the Celts believed. And much of it is disputed. So, there can be NO modern day Celtic religion. Those who write current Druidic texts are commiting acts of sacrilege.

Believe it or not, I'm with you completely on the despise of modern day "Celtic" religions. The majority of them have simply scraped a little off of the top of the old ways and cast them in a different light than that which they reside in and then have claimed to be an "underground" religion which has survived secretly through the ages.

My beliefs I call Celtic Shamanism simply because I follow a Shaman's path but the origins of which are found in Celtic history. Most of what I believe matches with some Welsh history and the rest seems to match up with some French and Germanic Caltic tribes. (unknown to many the Celts spanned a very large area at one time) I don't follow any of these new religions. I think organized religion is a farce anyway....some MAN trying to warp the true meaning of God (or in my case the Goddess) and have everyone believing what he wants them to believe.

And as for the Druids, yep...they sure did that. That's one of the reasons no one will know what exactly Stonehenge is. There were still many tribes who did not fall under the rule of the Druids and tried to keep accurate records. Several Welsh and Scottish (although they weren't known as Scotts yet) tribes had a history, some of which survives today. That's one of the ways in which we are able to follow the path of the old ways. (at least to the best extent possible)

[CyniQ]

Originally Posted by Weatherlite

True. That's how Christianity won them over was by adopting the same holidays, moving it a couple of days forward or back, adding in some supposed saint and changing the meaning. But, a lot of other Christian religions branched off of Catholicism so there're more out there that just the one.



Believe it or not, I'm with you completely on the despise of modern day "Celtic" religions. The majority of them have simply scraped a little off of the top of the old ways and cast them in a different light than that which they reside in and then have claimed to be an "underground" religion which has survived secretly through the ages.

My beliefs I call Celtic Shamanism simply because I follow a Shaman's path but the origins of which are found in Celtic history. Most of what I believe matches with some Welsh history and the rest seems to match up with some French and Germanic Caltic tribes. (unknown to many the Celts spanned a very large area at one time) I don't follow any of these new religions. I think organized religion is a farce anyway....some MAN trying to warp the true meaning of God (or in my case the Goddess) and have everyone believing what he wants them to believe.

And as for the Druids, yep...they sure did that. That's one of the reasons no one will know what exactly Stonehenge is. There were still many tribes who did not fall under the rule of the Druids and tried to keep accurate records. Several Welsh and Scottish (although they weren't known as Scotts yet) tribes had a history, some of which survives today. That's one of the ways in which we are able to follow the path of the old ways. (at least to the best extent possible)

I have such a hard time with these copycat religions though. Most people gravitate towards them because of some disillusionment with Christianity or mainstream religion in general. I understand these feelings, I've had them myself. But to exchange those beliefs for some sci fi mysticism, or a thinly veiled copy is... I don't know... pretend I said something that means ridiculous but is less offensive.

Celtic Shamanism for example. Originated with a Welsh guy named TalieWhacker. Right? [sorry couldn't resist ] So you believe in shapeshifting and that you're protected by animal spirits, that you can traverse realms and dimensions by climbing a tree, and whatnot. Right? The vast majority of these types of religions have biblical influences. For example, as I understand it Taliesin thought to have transformed himself into other forms and animals in his attempt to escape the Goddess Ceridwen after imbibing of the brew of inspiration and wisdom. Correct? Sound a little like Adam and Eve trying to hide from God after they ate from the tree of knowledge??

I don't really mean to make fun. But it is alot like Dungeons and Dragons, you know.

[Grizzly]

The only flaw in your premise, Cyniq, is that those beliefs predate Christianity. How could the Celtic mythos be influenced by Christianity if it wasn't invented yet. And, yes, I do mean "invented".

Now let's say, hypothetically, that it even had been invented already. If it hadn't reach the Celtic peoples yet, then it still couldn't have influenced their myths even if the entire rest of the world had heard of it.

Furthermore, what is the difference between shape shifting of the human form and turning water into wine. Is that not a form of elemental shifting?

And don't forget, the same scorn you as an "enlightened" Christian heap upon pagans will be heaped upon thee when rationality or, yuck, another religion becomes the norm

[swing]