TRT for competitive powerlifters?

[SWALE]

"or you can help a steroid-using athlete pass a doping protocol."

This situation in no way, shape or form, is analogous to the above, of course.

[Millard Baker]

Originally Posted by SWALE

"or you can help a steroid-using athlete pass a doping protocol."

This situation in no way, shape or form, is analogous to the above, of course.

It is much closer than you realize... Questions about artificially manipulating hormone levels and still passing the doping protocols such as the T:E ratio test are clearly consistent with the above.

In an atmosphere of steroid witchhunts and the corresponding hysteria, you can never be too careful.

[SWALE]

Negative. It's world's away. What I refer to is treating a legitimate deficiency which is making the athlete sick, and returning him to a healthy state.

But alas, the distinction is moot. Even making a sick man healthy again is cheating by their rules.

[Millard Baker]

Originally Posted by SWALE

Negative. It's world's away. What I refer to is treating a legitimate deficiency which is making the athlete sick, and returning him to a healthy state.

But alas, the distinction is moot. Even making a sick man healthy again is cheating by their rules.

I'm referring to the exact same thing - giving exogenous testosterone to an athlete to improve performance.

This is what you are doing even though your intentions are to "treat a legitimate deficiency" and restore the athlete to "a healthy state".

No difference in the end result.

[SWALE]

I'm not sure why you are oblivious to the difference, but we are talking about treating disease, not "improv[ing] performance".

You Libertarians crack me up.

[AnimalMass]

There is no reason for them to end their powerlifting careers rather than just lift in a federation that not only allows AAS use, but practically condones it.

I wasn't meaning for them to not go on HRT - I was just stating that if they did, they should compete with us big boys rather than the "drug free" crowd.

[AnimalMass]

and Swale, while your motivation is treating disease, there is no doubt that improved performance will also be an outcome of the HRT.

Matt

[Millard Baker]

Originally Posted by SWALE

I'm not sure why you are oblivious to the difference, but we are talking about treating disease, not "improv[ing] performance".

You Libertarians crack me up.

If you successfully treat disease, you improve performance. Simple.

If treating a disease doesn't make the patient better, then what is the point?

I'm not sure why you are oblivious to the game of semantics going on here.

[Millard Baker]

Originally Posted by SWALE

we are talking about treating disease, not "improv[ing] performance".

Keep in mind, that you opened this thread inquiring about the use of testosterone in powerlifters subject to drug testing.

So, in this context, how can you ignore the performance-enhancing effects of androgens?

While you may be talking about treating disease in the confines of your doctor's office, how these drugs improve performance becomes front and center in athletic competition.

[SWALE]

These guys have never been on steroids, and never would.

Therefore they would be at an incredible disadvantage if they were to compete against those who will use any amount of same.

This is not a question of semantics. He only wishes to be restored to baseline. He now has a disease. So, we cannot treat the disease AND allow him to compete.

This is my bone with this federation: I cannot treat a legitimate disease--all within NORMAL range--without disqualifying them.

Would they get caught? I doubt it. But it is also a matter of honor for them. They feel as I do, that the Federation has the right to make its own rules, and violating them is cheating, no matter how unfair those rules are.

If you guys think that normal range is the same as a gram per week, we need to have a talk.

I think we've exhausted this topic. Thank you for your help, time, and suggestions, gents.

[Millard Baker]

Originally Posted by SWALE

These guys have never been on steroids, and never would.

Therefore they would be at an incredible disadvantage if they were to compete against those who will use any amount of same.

This is not a question of semantics.

It is very much a question of semantics.

Your patients use testosterone. Testosterone IS a steroid. Your patients take steroids!

Testosterone doesn't magically cease to be a steroid when a doctor prescribes it.

Your patients use testosterone. Testosterone enhances performance. Your patients are taking a performance-enhancing drug.

Testosterone doesn't magicallly cease to enhance performance when a doctor prescribes it to treat an alleged disease.

[anabolicbruce]

I believe you have clearly demonstrated your lack of knowlege on the human edocrine system. Although you are right in saying "testosterone IS a steroid", what is the difference between an optimal natural level and TRT in a man with hypogonadism? THERE is NO difference! You are associating TRT to superphysiological doses of AAS including testosterone, I surely do not consider 100mg of cypionate a "performance enhancing dose". Dr. Crisler would be treating DISEASE which, as you said would improve overall health and performance, just like Lance Armstrong treated his disease (cancer), which in fact improved HIS performance; should we not aknowlege his accomplishments because he treated disease? I work at an HRT clinic and help treat many different types of professional athletes, many who are hypogonadic, shall they live in a state of sub-optimal health just because testosterone is "illegal" in their sport? You, just as the media, have it confused. TRT is not "cheating" unlike AAS. Take 600mg of test/week, now THATS performance enhancing!

SWALE- If it were me, I would treat these men, and advise them to continue the persuit of their dreams just as they deserve.

Originally Posted by administrator

It is very much a question of semantics.

Your patients use testosterone. Testosterone IS a steroid. Your patients take steroids!

Testosterone doesn't magically cease to be a steroid when a doctor prescribes it.

Your patients use testosterone. Testosterone enhances performance. Your patients are taking a performance-enhancing drug.

Testosterone doesn't magicallly cease to enhance performance when a doctor prescribes it to treat an alleged disease.

[Millard Baker]

I think you have demonstrated your inability to read my statements.

Originally Posted by anabolicbruce

You are associating TRT to superphysiological doses of AAS including testosterone..

No. I never did that.

Originally Posted by anabolicbruce

I surely do not consider 100mg of cypionate a "performance enhancing dose".

Practically every hypogonadal man on TRT I've corresponded with would disagree with this statement.

Originally Posted by anabolicbruce

Lance Armstrong treated his disease (cancer), which in fact improved HIS performance; should we not aknowlege his accomplishments because he treated disease?

What's your point? His accomplishments should be acknowledged, period. I've never hinted otherwise.

Originally Posted by anabolicbruce

I work at an HRT clinic and help treat many different types of professional athletes, many who are hypogonadic, shall they live in a state of sub-optimal health just because testosterone is "illegal" in their sport?

What's your point? I've never suggested hypogonadal men should forego TRT. I've always been a big advocate of TRT.

Originally Posted by anabolicbruce

You, just as the media, have it confused. TRT is not "cheating" unlike AAS.

I never suggested TRT was "cheating". I correctly pointed out that exogenous AAS use (including TRT) is banned by every anti-doping organization that I am familiar with. WADA considers it cheating. I do not.

Sir, I think you are the one that is confused. Practically every position you've attributed to me is wrong and unsubstantiated.

[Millard Baker]

Originally Posted by anabolicbruce

Although you are right in saying "testosterone IS a steroid", what is the difference between an optimal natural level and TRT in a man with hypogonadism? THERE is NO difference!

Actually, this is an excellent question. Someone with an incomplete understanding of the human endocrine system might think there is not a difference. But there is indeed a crucial difference between "optimal natural " (i.e. endogenously produced) testosterone levels AND TRT (exogenously administered) optimal testosterone levels...

TRT levels are much more stable.

A bodybuilding athletes will find it almost impossible to maintain optimal endogenous testosterone levels after 12-16 weeks of severe caloric restriction and overtraining seen in typical precontest preparation. When bodyfat levels drop to the low single-digits, this becomes almost impossible.

It is well-documented in elite endurance athletes that natural endogenous testosterone levels are dramatically suppressed. Months of logging 100 mile weeks really does hurt optimal T levels.

Now, if these athletes happened to be hypogonadal and received 100mg/week testosterone cypionate as part of a doctor-administered TRT protocol, they would be able to completely avoid the sub-optimal T levels that are almost unavoidable side effect of their training/nutrition regimens.

They could remain in the upper quartile of T levels unlike their peers who must relay on endogenous testosterone levels.

From an athlete's (i.e. performance-enhancement) perspective, this is a huge difference.

[SWALE]

Bruce is correct, on all points (except in that my patients have decided to retire from powerlifting competition rather than risk their health by remaining hypogonadal).

End of line.