21 day sust cycle...anyone tried it?

[Nate Dawg]

Im not really considering this cycle, just saw some guys talking about it on another board awhile back, and it kinda sparked my interest, as I would like to try a short cycle (6 weeks). The cycle is you inject 250mg of sust ed for 21 days. I am going to copy/paste this from another thread I started at a different board, just wondering you guy's opinions on this idea. Here it is:

Ok, I used the half life calculator to figure the amounts of test that would be active in the body for a 21 day cycle of sust at 300mg/day that is mixed at: 50mg test propionate, 50mg test phenylpropionate, 150mg test isocaprinate, 50mg test decanoate.

The reason I did it with 300mg/ml sust is that this is what I have available to me. (BTW, this took a LONG f'ing time calculating the release of 4 different esters for a total of 40 days then adding them all together lol, I have writers cramp from hell from figuring all of this, I really need to create a program on excel)

The half lives I used for each are:
Test propionate: 4.5 days
Test phenylpropionate: 6.5 days (i couldnt find any info, so i just guesstimated)
Test Isocaprinate: 9 days
Test Decanoate: 15 days

Here is the amount of ACTIVE test in the body each day, injecting the 300mg blend each day:

Day 1- 25mg
Day 2- 49mg
Day 3- 70mg
Day 4- 89mg
Day 5- 106mg
Day 6- 121mg
Day 7- 136mg
Day 8- 148mg
Day 9- 161mg
Day 10- 172mg
Day 11- 181mg
Day 12- 190mg
Day 13- 199mg
Day 14- 206mg
Day 15- 212mg
Day 16- 219mg
Day 17- 225mg
Day 18- 230mg
Day 19- 236mg
Day 20- 241mg
Day 21- 244mg

Done injecting test

Day 22- 221mg
Day 23- 204mg
Day 24- 186mg
Day 25- 169mg
Day 26- 155mg
Day 27- 142mg
Day 28- 131mg
Day 29- 122mg
Day 30- 113mg
Day 31- 103mg
Day 32- 94mg
Day 33- 88mg
Day 34- 79mg
Day 35- 74mg (Quit figuring in amount of propionate active in body, amount neglible)
Day 36- 63mg
Day 37- 59mg
Day 38- 56mg
Day 39- 49mg
Day 40- 48mg (Quit figuring in amount of active phenylpropionate, amount neglible)
Day 41- 39mg
Day 42- 35mg
Day 43- 34mg

I quit there, got really tired of punching numbers in the calculator lol.

Weekly totals of active testosterone:

Week 1: 596mg

Week 2: 1257mg

Week 3: 1607mg

Week 4: 1208mg

Week 5: 673mg

Week 6: 349mg

Over 6 weeks, that averages out to 948mg/week of active testosterone in the body, i dont really know if that means anything though lol

So really it appears the cycle would be considered pretty much a 6 week cycle, even though the test is only being injected for the first 3 weeks. On week 6, 349mg of active test is still enough to make gains on, and definetly not low enough to start pct yet.

I agree Chasec, it would be very hard to figure when to start post cycle, due to such high amounts of test being built up in the system, I would need to extend the days that I calculated out to around 8 weeks to correctly assess when to start pct. I have heard it somewhere, but cant remember for sure, but I think it is time to start pct when the weekly total of test drops below ~150mg/week? By looking at the amount of test that drops each week and projecting that out, I would think it would be best to start post cycle around mid-end of week 7.

When looking at the daily/weekly dosage of active testosterone that is in the body, it definetly appears IMO that this would be a good short cycle. Going by ALR's theories about starting a cycle androgenic and phasing to anabolic at the end, I think this would work. Start some TD boldenone around day 18-21, it would be very similar to the protocol jminis used for his short cycles. Maybe add in some winny too when adding the TD boldenone or a few days later. Just tossing around some ideas here.

So after considering this data, what are your opinions on a cycle such as this?

[Nate Dawg]

When I am referring to Author L. Rea, I dont think he actually recommends this cycle in hit book Building The Perfect Beast, but when I refer to him and his theories I am saying on how he likes to start the cycle out with an androgenic phase, then fade the androgenic hormones out, meanwhile building up the dosage of anabolic hormones such as boldenone to solidify gains, and I believe to reduce some of the circulating estrogen that would be present with androgenic hormones such as testosterone. I havent actually read his book BTPB, but from what I have discussed with others that have, this is how he likes to design his short cycles, get in and get out.

Over at anabolicminds, there is a guy who ran one of ALR's recommended short cycles, it was 40 days long, transdermal test base and transdermal boldenone were the main hormones, with the last ~10 days of the cycle being with some winny to harden up. He started high on the test, phased that out while upping the dose of boldenone. He put on 21lbs I believe in the 40 day cycle, and kept 18-19 after post cycle was all said and done.

Here is the link to his cycle outline

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19178

the outline is post #13

Mods if I cant post a link to another board, please delete the link.

So what do you guys think of the 21 day sust cycle? The original thread I read about it, almost a year ago, the guy said it was in the top 10 best cycles ever, now where he read that I have no clue, but thats what he said and was asking other's opinions on it. All I know, is week 3 when you have 1600mg of ACTIVE testosterone in you, you would feel like superman.

[j martini]

I dont like it at all. Test levels are fluctuating up and down i dont like short cycles how much muscle can you seriously build in 6 weeks. The guy who said he gained 20 pounds in 40 days thaere is no way in hell that it is all solid muscle he might have gained 20 pounds of bodyweight but there is a big difference between bodyweigh and muscle.
If you are at any level beyond beginner you would be doing extremely well to gain 20 pounds off muscle a year.
If you want to run a short cycle why not use prop, your test levels will peak much earlier and you will be able to keep your blood levels more stable.

[Bob Smith]

I dont like it because his assumptions are completely wrong. Lets take a look at this...

Here is the amount of ACTIVE test in the body each day, injecting the 300mg blend each day:

Day 1- 25mg
Day 2- 49mg
Day 3- 70mg
Day 4- 89mg
Day 5- 106mg
Day 6- 121mg
Day 7- 136mg
Day 8- 148mg

This guy is saying that NOTHING other than prop enters the bloodstream for 4-5 days. That is wrong. Referencing Anabolics 2005 easily dispels this idea. Page 195 has a chart of the pharmicokinetics of test enth. Peak levels are reached within 1 day. Page 191, cyp, peak levels reached in 1 day. You can extend the same idea to the long-acting esters in a sust product. Just because the halflife is 5 days doesnt mean it takes that long to have ANY enter the bloodstream. Deca is really slow to reach peak levels but it is still only 2 days. That guy that wrote about that cycle has completely wrong assumptions.

BTW, just so people dont bitch about the numbers/graphs in the book being speculation or wrong or whatever, each of those charts is taken from various peer-reviewed journals such as the journal Endocrinology and Fertility and Sterility.

The only reason that guy thinks that cycle is top 10 is because he is freaking injeting 2100mg of test every week. No shit youll grow on that! It has nothing to do with the "slow release" idea he wrote about and has everything to do with amount he is injecting. He is showing peak "Active" levels at 244mg, which isnt even close to the reality of that cycle. I dont feel like doing the math, but peak levels on that cycle will probably be closer to 3000-3500mg.

So at the end of his post he asks " So after considering this data, what are your opinions on a cycle such as this?"

1) Your numbers are completely flawed.
2) Just about anyone on earth would grow from that cycle, but not because of any reason you cited.
3) I wouldnt recommend that cycle to anyone.

[Nate Dawg]

Originally Posted by j martini

I dont like it at all. Test levels are fluctuating up and down i dont like short cycles how much muscle can you seriously build in 6 weeks. The guy who said he gained 20 pounds in 40 days thaere is no way in hell that it is all solid muscle he might have gained 20 pounds of bodyweight but there is a big difference between bodyweigh and muscle.
If you are at any level beyond beginner you would be doing extremely well to gain 20 pounds off muscle a year.
If you want to run a short cycle why not use prop, your test levels will peak much earlier and you will be able to keep your blood levels more stable.

He said from all the weight he gained he had a 1-2% increase in bodyfat, I never said it was 20lbs of pure muscle. He was bulking and for a all transdermal cycle, 40 days long, and using ALR's principles, and I was just showing how short cycles can make good gains.

I agree test levels are fluctuating very much in that cycle, and would probably make sides very bad at the beginning for sure.

Im not going to run this cycle, I just read about it and was asking your opinions on it thats all. The reason I wouldnt run prop for a short cycle is that my body doesnt tolerate the stuff very well in doses that would be high enough for a short cycle, anything much over 125mg/day and I get sick, most likely I just need to find some different prop.

[Nate Dawg]

Originally Posted by Bob Smith

I dont like it because his assumptions are completely wrong. Lets take a look at this...

Here is the amount of ACTIVE test in the body each day, injecting the 300mg blend each day:

Day 1- 25mg
Day 2- 49mg
Day 3- 70mg
Day 4- 89mg
Day 5- 106mg
Day 6- 121mg
Day 7- 136mg
Day 8- 148mg

This guy is saying that NOTHING other than prop enters the bloodstream for 4-5 days. That is wrong. Referencing Anabolics 2005 easily dispels this idea. Page 195 has a chart of the pharmicokinetics of test enth. Peak levels are reached within 1 day. Page 191, cyp, peak levels reached in 1 day. You can extend the same idea to the long-acting esters in a sust product. Just because the halflife is 5 days doesnt mean it takes that long to have ANY enter the bloodstream. Deca is really slow to reach peak levels but it is still only 2 days. That guy that wrote about that cycle has completely wrong assumptions.

BTW, just so people dont bitch about the numbers/graphs in the book being speculation or wrong or whatever, each of those charts is taken from various peer-reviewed journals such as the journal Endocrinology and Fertility and Sterility.

The only reason that guy thinks that cycle is top 10 is because he is freaking injeting 2100mg of test every week. No shit youll grow on that! It has nothing to do with the "slow release" idea he wrote about and has everything to do with amount he is injecting. He is showing peak "Active" levels at 244mg, which isnt even close to the reality of that cycle. I dont feel like doing the math, but peak levels on that cycle will probably be closer to 3000-3500mg.

So at the end of his post he asks " So after considering this data, what are your opinions on a cycle such as this?"

1) Your numbers are completely flawed.
2) Just about anyone on earth would grow from that cycle, but not because of any reason you cited.
3) I wouldnt recommend that cycle to anyone.

Im not going to argue with Anabolics 2005, that is very interesting that it shows peak levels are reached in 1 day, but why is it when you are running a test enan/cyp cycle just by itself, you dont feel much till week 3-4? If peak levels were truly reached in 1 day, you would be feeling it much sooner than that I would think...

The formula I used for calculating the halflives is MgDL=MgDT*(0.5^(D/HL)) With MgDL being mg of depot left, MgDT being the total mg of depot in body, D is day number, and HL is the halflife. Lets take Test cyp for example, 12 day halflife, injected 1000mg and want to check the levels 7 days later. MgDL=1000mg*(0.5^(7/12))=667mg. That means 667mg of depot is still in the body that is not even active yet, so subtract that from 1000mg of total depot and you come up with 333mg of active testosterone released from that one shot.

Like I said earlier, Im not going to argue with Anabolics 2005, this is just a halflife calculator I found at a different board, so thats what I use when I am figuring halflives. When you say the active total is more like 3000-3500mg, I dont know if you mean per week or if you meant 300-350mg active test/day, but either way there is no way to achieve those levels for 1)you arent even injecting that much test a week 2) even though you are injecting 300mg of test a day, you will never truly reach 300mg of active testosterone in your blood per day, just due to the fact that the 300mg weight is taking into account the weight of the esters too, so there really isnt exactly 300mg of test in there. For example you could be injecting 100mg of prop ed, and the highest levels you would probably reach after a long period would be 97-98mg of active tesosterone in your body, due to part of that 100mg being ester weight.

[Bob Smith]

Again, I think your math and assumptions are incorrect.

I just used a roid calculator and ran the cycle originally posted. Peak concentration was 2082 on day 21.

[Nate Dawg]

Could you send me a link to that calculator you used, I would really appreciate it. I know the equation I used is not 100% accurate, but I think it is close enough to give a good idea what is going on. If peak concentration is 2082 by day 21, then thats even better

I'm not trying to argue anything with you here Bob, just I saw this cycle suggestion, thought it sounded interesting, so I ran my halflife calculator on each of the 4 different esters in the sust and added everything together to get the final numbers, and I was actually quite surprised by how high the peak numbers actually were, so I thought I would post what I had found to get everyone's opinion on it. I appreciate you taking the time to criticize the cycle and telling me what you think about it.


So from what Bob found, my test levels are incorrect in that they are too low, so if test levels in the blood stream are actually higher than what I calculated, thats fine by me. So really, if you were going to do a short cycle, say 6 weeks, this appears it would offer more gains than compared to a 6 week 100mg/day test prop cycle. With the sust cycle, at least 3 of those weeks would be over a gram of active test, with the 3rd week hitting just over 2 grams from what Bob found. So it appears this cycle would give better gains than the 700mg/week prop cycle. The problem with the sust cycle is the highly fluctuating levels, acne would probably flare up pretty bad, I dont know what the bloat would be like, probably depends if you are running any AI's, diet, person etc...and the main thing that worries me about it is estrogen when you have 2grams of test in you, that seems like a really good way to grow a C cup when levels are jacked up so high so fast. I think with a good dose of arimidex it could probably be avoided, but again it most likely depends on the person and how they react to test.

[seand95]

Nate Dawg, Im with you on this one. Bob has ripped me before for using L. Rea's principles but what I would like to say is, dont dock it till you've tried it.
I think your numbers are accurate and that is because of the simple fact that over a number of days, as the injection site diminishes, the ester is broken down making it "free-testosterone". Bob, unless I read your posts wrong, there is just no way that viscous oil travels from the injection site, into surrounding capillaries, while long chain esters are cleaved off and free test made active in 1-2 days. If injecting 2 grams all at once say, your saying that within the next day, plasma test levels are 2 grams

[seand95]

I might add too, that I have followed a couple of his protocols with better gains and less sides that the traditional 8-12 weeker that the average meso bretheren so diligintly abides by. Really, I suggest anyone reading to purchase the book and read some of the ideas. He emphasizes short duration cycles, that are wayyyy less abrasive on your body and much less inhibitory on the HPTA. Years of frustration has ended with this book. ok, im gonna step off my soap box.

[Nate Dawg]

Thanks for agreeing Seahawk, I know this is definetly not the traditional cycle layout at all, but like you said if you havent tried it dont bash it. Now if it seems super ridiculous and seems like it wont work, then it probably wont, but obviously with this cycle when active blood levels reach 1600mg...gains will be made. I may try this sometime as an experiment, nothing to lose really other than some sust, but gains will be made so its all good.

Seahawk, what is the book by ALR that you really like, is it Building the perfect Beast? I have heard the CME books are good, but they are more for people just getting started into AAS, and mostly just general info, while the BTBP contains more of his theories and advanced cycle layouts.

[Bob Smith]

Originally Posted by seand95

Bob, unless I read your posts wrong, there is just no way that viscous oil travels from the injection site, into surrounding capillaries, while long chain esters are cleaved off and free test made active in 1-2 days.

If you want the reference, look at "Comparison of tesosterone, dihydrotestosterone, luteinizing hormone, and follicel-stimulating hormone is serum after injection of testosterone enanthate and cypionate." Schulte-Beerbuhl M, Nieschlag E. Fertil Steril. 1980 Feb;33(2):201-3.

[seand95]

Nate Dawg... I dont know what its showing on your screen but my name is SeanD95. hahah, lol. If you have money, get both. BTPB is for a more advanced AAS user, requiring more knowledge before picking up the book. But if you have a grasp on most this, then it shouldnt be a problem.
Stupid idea... nahh, come on, your gonna get a little somethin out of just about anything.

Bob Smith, where can I find that abstract your posted. I'd really like to read that. And just for clarification, correct me if im wrong, but the whole ester deal was obviously created to increase half-life..daah, so with its transport into the blood plasma, it then needs to be acted upon by enzymes which cleave the ester down until we get a lone test molecule. Longer ester= longer time it takes enzyme to knock it down, hence longer half-life. Ok, so with that understanding, I think the L. Rea protocols make a lot of sense coupled with the bodys counter-acting mechanisms to the anabolic/catabolic ratio. His whole deal is "get in, build up, and get out before the body can take up counterproductive defense to the anabolic enviroment." -L.rea.
We all see this when we go on a long cycle and gains seem to cease around weeks 6-8, different for everyone, but roughly close to that.
BTW Bob, just want to hear your feedback because I understand your quite knowledgable in this feild. Not trying to start another bs, argue thread.
Thanks

[Nate Dawg]

Originally Posted by seand95

Nate Dawg... I dont know what its showing on your screen but my name is SeanD95. hahah, lol.

Sorry sean lol, I dont know what I was thinking/seeing...anyways. I will hopefully be picking up BTPB here very soon.

[Deacon]

I agree with Bob - I am not a L Rhea fan at all - his cycles are to complicated and wont yield any better results than a much simpler cycle would