Steroid Forum: This is a discussion on Clomid or HCG within the Anabolic Steroids forums, part of the extensive steroid information at MESO-Rx; I've taken the advice of some of the guys and revised my cycle. It will now be in the form ...
I've taken the advice of some of the guys and revised my cycle. It will now be in the form of a classic sus and deca stack shooting the sus eod and the deca @ 400 mg/wk for 8 weeks, phasing out the deca a week before. I have opted to take nolvadex ed for the entire cycle to deal with my sensitivty to gyno. For pct I intend to do clomid, starting one to two weeks after the last sus shot and using for about 10 days. Will this be enough to restore normal endogenous test without crashing strength and size gains. Sensible constructive replies only, please guys, be fair.
And you'll want to begin clomid 18 days after your last sust shot....like Deacon said, run the clomid a minimum of 3 weeks. You should also run nolva at 20mg/day throughout pct, and I run Adex throughout my cycles and pct, which expedites recovery too.
i agree 4 weeks on the clomid.load it heavy for the first 3 days then taper down to say 50mg for the rest.hcg is also a good idea as well.1000mcg for five days.about have way through clomid theropy.
i agree 4 weeks on the clomid.load it heavy for the first 3 days then taper down to say 50mg for the rest.hcg is also a good idea as well.1000mcg for five days.about have way through clomid theropy.
Absolutely do NOT use HCG during clomid. Feel free to use it beforehand, but using the two at the same time is counterproductive.
Unless cycle is long i wouldn't use HCG,if you do,use it a few times during the cycle. You can use Clomid post or you can just stick with the Nolva post. Either way will be good. Some use Nolva over Clomid post and say it works better for them
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Absolutely do NOT use HCG during clomid. Feel free to use it beforehand, but using the two at the same time is counterproductive.
I agree with Einstein here and he brings up a good point - you can IMO overlap them one week but only one week at most.
What you should do is find out the length of the longest ester you run - say it is two weeks - then start hcg the same week as last injection and run it that week plus two more - then start clomid and or nolva.
Because of the length and type of gear I am using this cycle I will be running both nolva and clomid this pct.
high estrogen and high testosterone or other steroids cause inhibition so if you are taking gear even if you take anti e you still have inhibition from the hormones you are taking-you therefore cannot avoid inhibition on a cycle. The aim mate is to limit the degree of disturbance to your bodys equilibrium. Keep estrogen under control as it said this down regulates the pituitarys response to LHRH so if you get bloat alot you should look take nolvas during the cycle and even look into femera and anastrozole(arimidex) but do not have estrogen too low from excessive anti aromatose doses as this causes down regulation of Hpta as does high estrogen. Limiting the disturbance on cycle you need to do two things 1} keep your nuts working, I previously did this mid cycle and the last week 3 shots of 1500iu HCG but after speaking to a National level competitor and following his advice have been using 250iu 2 times a week every week to prevent the testicles atrophying in the first place. Low dose is best as I have learnt higher doses in a single shot can down regulate the testicles response to LH- so if theres still atrophy on 250iu twice a week increase it to 3 times-if still go upto 500iu twice a week and that should be more than enough. OK that takes care of the first point. The second is to get the Hpta going again to release LHRH and in turn LH and FSH after the cycle. Here you need to use an anti e to block the negative feedback of estrogen in the Hpta simply what happens is the Hpta does not sense any estrogen as nolva or clomid block the estrogen from binding.... the Hpta sensing low estrogen assumes low testosterone too so ups LHRH and in turn LH which in turn gets the testicles producing testosterone naturally again. Doing things this way prevention of testicle shutdown is much better than trying to cure it later as was done in the past.
Now Ive explained why-what you do is 1}use 250iu HCG twice a week every week of your cycle upto 2 weeks before the steroids will have cleared enough to start clomid. I take this as 100mg of steroid in the system worked out from the half lives.
2} use clomid at a loaded dose 300-400mg then 50mg a day. You can also use 20mg a day of nolva as well-as Deacon put- as many people do due to alot of discussion which is better if any so some opt to use both to cover all bases. I run clomid 6 weeks personally and blood tests show i have recovered well each time.
When 1} will apply-when the steroids will have cleared enough for you to benefit from clomid- 2 weeks after your last sustanon shot.. so use Hcg as stated right until the final shot of sust-start clomid 2 weeks later.
Good post. I disagree with the idea that maintaining testicular size is of any benefit to us during a cycle as opposed to regaining size just prior to pct. I also see very little issues with low estrogen, which is actually difficult to acheive while using typical doses of AIs with typical doses of test. You can consider HPTA function essentially defunct during a cycle, so there is no need to go out of our ways to take measures that will have negligible positive effects on HPTA during a cycle. Lowered estrogen means lower SHBG levels, which means a higher % of bioavailable AAS.
The information on why too low estrogen is detrimental to recovery is here- http://www.mesomorphosis.com/article...production.htm
as well as this being taught to me by my gym owner a veteran competitor and steroid user.
The pituitary uses the amount of LHRH as one of its signals in deciding how much LH it should produce. Proper response depends on having sufficient receptors for LHRH. These receptors must be activated for LH to be produced. The pituitary also uses sex hormone levels, both current and the past history, in deciding how much LH to produce. Some aspects of the pituitary’s behavior are peculiar. For example, too much LHRH results in the pituitary downregulating LHRH receptors, with the result that very high LHRH production, which one would think should result in high testosterone production, actually lowers testosterone production. Another oddity is that while high estrogen levels inhibit the pituitary, still some estrogen is required to maintain a high number of LHRH receptors. So both very low and high levels of estrogen can inhibit LH production.
As it says current and recent history affects the concentration of Lhrh receptors in the pituitary. therefore very low estrogen during a cycle will have a detrimental effect on recovery-even in the presence of normal levels of Lhrh if receptors are down regulated you will not produce a normal level of Lh and therefore a normal level of testosterone after the cycle. Anti aromatose like femera and anastrozole{arimidex} can lower estrogen a great deal and each persons reaction to a given dosage varies. that is why without blood tests it is just an educated guess how a drug during the cycle is affecting you
Last edited by Animalhouse; 05-15-2004 at 03:58 PM.
Clomid or HCG 
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