Cut and Bulk, but which first?

[hotdr]

Hey everybody, I'm trying to cut a lot of fat and add a lot of muscle and I'm aware that you can't do both at the same time. But I'm not sure what order to do things in...I'm 5'8" 185 lbs and nearly 20% b/f. My long term goal is 200lbs at 10% b/f. This means cutting almost 20 lbs of fat and putting on a little over 30 lbs lean mass.

My understanding is that the "pro's" do all their bulking cycles and then do all their cutting at the end (just before the contests), however I'm not entered into any contests, I'm just doing this for myself. My initial thought is that it would be easier to do cardio now (at 185 lbs) rather than later (at 220 lbs) so I should cut first and then bulk up, but if 'm using DNP as part of the cutting strategy, I might not be able to do a lot of cardio anyway. But I'm concerned that if I cut first I might put all the fat back on while bulking?

What would you guys do?
A. Try to do all the bulking cycles first and get cut later?
B. Try to do all the cutting cycles first and bulk up later?
C. Alternate cutting and bulking cycles?

[sdwa]

Originally Posted by hotdr

Hey everybody, I'm trying to cut a lot of fat and add a lot of muscle and I'm aware that you can't do both at the same time. But I'm not sure what order to do things in...I'm 5'8" 185 lbs and nearly 20% b/f. My long term goal is 200lbs at 10% b/f. This means cutting almost 20 lbs of fat and putting on a little over 30 lbs lean mass.

My understanding is that the "pro's" do all their bulking cycles and then do all their cutting at the end (just before the contests), however I'm not entered into any contests, I'm just doing this for myself. My initial thought is that it would be easier to do cardio now (at 185 lbs) rather than later (at 220 lbs) so I should cut first and then bulk up, but if 'm using DNP as part of the cutting strategy, I might not be able to do a lot of cardio anyway. But I'm concerned that if I cut first I might put all the fat back on while bulking?

What would you guys do?
A. Try to do all the bulking cycles first and get cut later?
B. Try to do all the cutting cycles first and bulk up later?
C. Alternate cutting and bulking cycles?

If you're using AAS, from what I've read around here at least not personal experience, all bets are off when it comes to adding mass and losing fat. IOW, if you're juicing, there's no reason you can't add muscle while cutting your bodyfat. Also, if you do a cycle and add 15 pounds of muscle just while maintaing your bodyfat, you'll be at 200 and 14%, which is not far off from your goal at all.

If no AAS were involved, I'd say cut some fat first because you're going to get some of it back when you bulk. But if you're going to use AAS for this goal, I'd say plan a good cycle, lift hard, eat right, and you should have no problem hitting 200 at 14%. Next cycle could be a cutting cycle, where you could still pick up some muscle, and you're right where you want to be.

[hotdr]

Thanks for the reply. I would definitely be trying AAS. The last couple years I have had trouble gaining strength without adding fat and/or losing fat without losing a lot of strength. 8 months ago I finished naturally cutting 10 lbs (from 190 to 180) but that made me quite weak, so I know some was muscle. Now I'm at 185, and just a bit stronger than I was 190, so I know that I've made a real gain, but it really seems like a lot of time and work for a relitively modest gain. I guess I'm getting old or something....

[Stormbringer]

Remember here that the more muscle you add the more calories you will burn. U definitely can add muscle and burn fat at the same time. Just clean your diet up a little and go for Bulk. Increase your calories with clean protein and carbs. Stay away from junk food. I would do a two bulking cycles then a cutting cycle just like you were going to compete in a show next year. Pretty standard to do at least one of both each year whether competing or not for me.

[prodigy06]

In order to cut you need something to cut down to.

[hotdr]

Originally Posted by prodigy06

In order to cut you need something to cut down to.

OUCH!

[MaxRep]

I think Arnold said something along the lines of... You don't carve a pebble.

It's much harder to build muscle than lose fat. Spend your time training with a quality diet and worry about losing the fat later.

Best regards,
MaxRep

[danasti]

People love to talk about how you can add weight and subtract weight from your body at exactly the same time, with the same diet. However, I do see people try to do this in the real world (not on the internet!) and I watch a few months of frustration come to an end with the realization of wasted anabolics, wasted time and alot of wasted energy. You can make some improvements and you might look a little different but it's nothing like choosing a path and focusing on that goal and that specific outcome.

By picking a direction you'll choose a caloric deficit or a caloric surplus and you'll know which way you are trying to go. You will know what you are trying to do and you will have a FOCUS to you cycle! Focus and discipline are important in life and even more important in bodybuilding. It takes so much discipline to diet in either direction. Eating 8-10 ounces of meat every 2 hours is tough work for the average Joe. Living without carbs can be painful and miserable. Either way you go it's all diet. Cardio is such a minor addition to weightloss. I do some cardio personally but I know it's not nearly as effective at burning calories as proper weight training. Cut 1/2 cup of rice and 2 tbsps of peanut butter. There, I've done 45 minutes of really boring cardio, saved an hour and saved precious muscle tissue. Cardio burn everything, muscle included and is catabolic. Funny you mention pro bodybuilders; many of them despise cardio and see it as a complete and total waste of time. Many don't step on a machine when they cut. They'd rather just lift more weights and leave the cardio machines for the figure competitors.

Here's how I define cutting: A gradual (weekly/biweekly) calorie/carb decrease
Here's how I define bulking: A gradual (weekly/biweekly) calorie/carb increase

Every week you add or subtract because as the body adjusts you need to push it more in the direction you are going. Of course training is included but you aren't gaining or losing anything without food; so diet is always top priority in my opinion.

Let's go back to you mentioning pro bodybuilders. They begin their offseason at a very low body fat percentage. Because they are so low in body fat it means that they have the liberty to put on alot of weight and muscle quickly. They are "primed" to add weight. They have been carb cycling for months and their body is in a perfect state to add on new muscle. At 20% body fat, if you are really that high, you are absolutely irresponsible to eat a bulking diet. You should learn how to diet yourself down to a level of 10-12% and have the discipline to get their before you start taking anabolics. Getting to 10-12% is something that any man can do with a proper knowledge of nutrition. Of course, this in only my opinion, but at 20% body fat you haven't demonstrated to yourself that you have control over your food intake or your body composition at a very basic level. However, many people do start things like DNP, Thyroid meds, clen and anabolics only to find out on their own that these aren't magic pills and that brings them to the realization that they were looking in the wrong place at the wrong time. So, in that sense, maybe it's good that you to try these things and get it over with. They are only supplements which happen work better (much better! ) than OTC stuff. Supplement to me means: in supplement to strict and well researched diet and training. Diet, training are the core. Supplements don't work if you eat and train poorly and the negatives can be devistating. Without consistent training LDL can become a serious issue. That's even more applicable to you considering your body fat. High body fat automatically puts you at risk for more severe blood pressure issues. I really believe that the proper conditioning needs to be there with first time users. I even think that a bulk should be started from as low of a body fat as possible, so weight can be packed on quick and the body brought back into condition as quickly as possible.

I certainly respect any disagreements about my opinions and I wish you the best of luck with whatever you choose. Stay Safe!

[hotdr]

Danasti:
First off, thanks for the reply. My intution agrees with you about getting down to 10-12% b/f before trying to "bulk up", but I also respect the "you don't carve a pebble" point of view and that is the essence of my decision.

My experience with weight loss has been that it makes me weak. I know I can drop the pounds with diet and cardio, but you are right that cardio burns everything! I have a problem with just using diet alone. I don't know if I just lack the willpower or if the caloric deficit screws with my mind or what, but my diets are always unsuccessfull unless combined with serious cardio. (I call serious 1200 calories per day cardio). I believe I can control the composition of my body, but when I do I don't like the results (e.g. when I did track a few years back I was 160, and 10% b/f, but I was a total wimp in the wieght room...)

I understand the Pro's don't use cardio, but then the pro's probably don't play pick-up soccer or basketball either (their training regime can't risk a twisted knee or sprained ankle...). I want to be big and cut, but not at the expense of being an all-round athlete.

You talk about "boring" cardio, but I've got a dog and I live in an area with a beautifull trail system. 60 to 90 min running through the trees with my dog is actually quite enjoyable.

When I first posed the question I was leaning toward cut first, bulk second but now I am leaning toward the bulk first cut second. More specifically I like Stormbringer's suggestion of two bulking cycles and one cutting cycle.

[advanced-stealth]

As always great advice MAX

Originally Posted by MaxRep

I think Arnold said something along the lines of... You don't carve a pebble.

It's much harder to build muscle than lose fat. Spend your time training with a quality diet and worry about losing the fat later.

Best regards,
MaxRep

[Bosnian_Brawler]

I am sure that you both aproaches are good..but there is another option...You can always do not so potent cycle, with quality mass gains....You will not gain 20-30 lbs, but rather 10-20 lbs of quality muscle....that way you can gradually improve your physique...

[danasti]

Hey hotdr,

I'm not sure why you would lack strength in the weight room at 10% body fat. That's not a very low body fat percentage. You should feel extremely healthy and strong at 6-8% body fat. I love analogies but I wouldn't choose the "you can't carve a peeble", I would choose the "always begin painting on a blank canvas" approach in your case. If you are dead set on starting AAS I would recommend two 8 week "cutters" and some disciplined high protein, low carb and moderate fat dieting. This should put you at about 175 lbs and 10-11% body fat. You will look far more "muscular" and vascular at 175lbs 10% then you do now, trust me on this. This to me is realistic initial goal for someone to then begin "painting" up to 200lbs. You could begin bulking in 8 months.

There are some other problems with bulking at a very high body fat that I didn't mention yesterday. When I measure someone at or around your body fat (even lower) they generally all have problem areas. Those areas are right under the belly button, below and to side of each pectoral muscle and on the side/back just a bit above glutes. These are always the last areas to come off when cutting and sometimes they don't. I've known some very experienced bodybuilders who have needed liposuction, especially under or around the pectoral. And they tried everything else twice first. With the blank canvas approach you can see the male muscular shape and build onto that. A bulk is easier because you actually see the muscle growth.

Other than that, I'd just stay away from compounds that tend to bloat because the last thing you need is more pressure on nerves and arteries. Keep a constant eye on blood pressure issues and make sure you have your lipid and liver panels come back in good shape before starting, while on and after finishing. 1200 calories of cardio! Wow, that's extreme stuff! Super catabolic IMO. Look at cyclists and their muscle structure. That's how I imagine looking with that much cardio, the hit on muscle is immense for the length of time and the amount of energy 1200 calories takes to burn. I would see that as a true negative for anyone even trying to maintain muscle let alone build muscle. I would stick to heavy weight and no more than 20-30 minutes of light cardio, 3 times a week.

I wish you all the best and hope you find the best solution to your goals. Work hard and you'll get what you want!

[juangutieres]

I sounds like you haven't done any AS before, is that right? Also, how old are you and how long have you been lifting consistantly most recently? Years ago when i did my first couple cycles I did what might be considered as moderate cutting cycles and I lost a lot of % bf and put on a fair amount of solid muscle. If it is your first or second cycle, I personaly would maybe do some tren, winny, and a touch of test, do a little light cardio in the morning and keep a clean diet. I agree with most of the above advice also.

[hotdr]

Hi Juangutieres. I've been lifting off and on for ~16 years, the last 2.5 years consistently, with no roids. In the last 10 years I've put on 50 lbs (135 lbs - 185 lbs), but unfortunately I think almost 20 lbs of that gain is fat!. I like your advice of a moderate cutting cycle to start. If I could cut the fat and put on even a little muscle that would be great, as my experience with natural cutting (at least since I hit my 30's) is that I LOSE muscle while cutting.

Danasti: You are making a lot of sense to me. I think a short-term goal of 175 lbs @10% b/f is a good idea. I would like to see what I got under this fat before I "bulk up". The 200lbs @ 10% is a long-term goal and I can wait a while before doing a big bulking cycle. Also I like to play soccer, basketball, volleyball, and run, so an added benefit is that by cutting first it will improve my performance in other sports wheras bulking first would slow me down.

I'm thinking now that a moderate cutting cycle with diet and a little less cardio would let me lose the fat without losing muscle (maybe even gain a little). Based on other stuff I've read on this board, I'm thinking about a combination of Anavar and DNP. Anavar to help me keep the muscle I've got, and maybe build a few more quality lbs. DNP to help lose the fat without resorting to too much cardio...

Bosnian Brawler: Also good advice. I am mixing your advice with Danasti's; if I can gain even 5-10 lbs of quality muscle while losing weight I would be very happy. I will worry about the big gains later when I am more fit.

Thanks again everyone for all your comments!