Steroid Forum: This is a discussion on DNP Question within the Anabolic Steroids forums, part of the extensive steroid information at MESO-Rx; If you run DNP by its self will you run into the problem of losing lean muscle mass. Im 5 ...
If you run DNP by its self will you run into the problem of losing lean muscle mass. Im 5 weeks into my cycle and I put on 15 pounds of muscle and lose 6 pounds of fat. After im done Im going to run DNP to lose some body fat but I dont want to lose the hard earn muscle I've put on. Will I run into the problem of losing muscle on DNP?
I'm on DNP right now (only 2nd day), but I can basically tell you that any form of weight loss is going to make your body lose muscle except for steroids. People claim clenbuterol will make you lose fat and gain muscle at the same time but I have not seen this to be true. I kind of think clen is overrated. The best way to minimize muscle loss is to use anabolics while use cutting drugs. I have heard Trenbolone is #1, but you will go bald
If you run DNP by its self will you run into the problem of losing lean muscle mass.
You shouldn't be losing much muscle, if at all. In contract to things like thyroid, DNP does not appear to be catabolic. Here are four references from the research, with quotes:
Harper JA, Dickinson K and Brand MD (2001) Mitochondrial uncoupling as a target for drug development for the treatment of obesity. Obesity Rev, 2, 255–265
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In contrast to the use of thyroid extract (also in common use at the time to treat obesity), DNP did not promote urinary nitrogen excretion, so the assumption was made that weight loss could be attributed to a specific loss of fat (47).
Bell, Jacques. 1939. Etude biologique des produits dinitres chez l'homme. Medecine. 19:749-54.
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2. This increase of the metabolism is due mostly to an increase in the combustion of the fat and a little to combustion of carbohydrates.
3. Dinitrophenol does not attack cell tissue albumin and does not determine the fat loss to the expense of the muscles, contrary to thyroxine.
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Finally, thyroxine causes a nitrogen malnutrition: it burns the muscle and fatigues the heart. Dinitrophenol-lysidine, to the contrary, causes a lipid-glycemic loss: it is the elimination of reserve materials without attacking visceral and muscle tissue.
Simkins S 1937 Dinitrophenol and desiccated thyroid in the treatment of obesity. JAMA 108:2110–2119.
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The extra energy of metabolism is derived mainly from fat and practically not at all from protein or carbohydrate. Consequently, dinitrophenol in therapeutic dosage produces no breakdown of significant amounts of body protein, even with patients on an inadequate protein intake. This is in marked contrast with the very consdierable increase in nitrogen excretion observed in patients undergoing treatment with thyroid. The fat is used completely and satisfactorily broken down, as no ketone bodies are found in urine. There is a no hyperlipidemia or constant change in the fixed and fatty acids of the blood.
Cutting WC, Tainter ML. Metabolic actions of dinitrophenol with the use of balanced and unbalanced diets. J Am Med Assoc 1933; 101: 2099–2102.
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Dinitrophenol, used in doses of therapeutic range, caused increases in metabolism of the usual magnitude irrespective of the type of diet. The nitrogen excretion was never greater than the intake, even when the subjects lost as much as 5 pounds in body weight during one week. From this it seemed probable that there was no actual tissue breakdown during these short periods of heightened metabolism, but that the loss of weight was due to the utilization of stored carbohydrate or fat. This does not mean, of course, that tissue breakdown would not occur if the drug should be given over longer periods, but probably when materials other than protein are available these are utilized first. Thus the assumption might be made that, as long as the protein intake is adequate, any reduction in body weight is not primarily at the expense of the tissue proteins.
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3.The subjects excreted less nitrogen than they ingested, yet there were definite losses of body weight. Therefore, body proteins probably were not broken down. The output of urinary organic acid was not increased, thus indicating that the fats were completely burned without giving rise to acidosis.
People claim clenbuterol will make you lose fat and gain muscle at the same time but I have not seen this to be true.
It is true. Anticatabolic effects have been shown numerous times in humans, corroborating the animal data.
For example, this study in obese women found that after 8 weeks of EC administration (a general adrenergic agonist), the EC group lost 9.9 lbs more body fat and 6.2 lbs less fat-free mass. "These findings provide evidence that promotion of fat loss and preservation of FFM during weight reduction may also be achieved pharmacologically in humans."
This more extensive study stated "We conclude that the ephedrine/caffeine combination is effective in improving and maintaining weight loss, further it has lean body mass saving properties."
This paper was pretty explicit, titled "Clenbuterol increases lean muscle mass but not endurance in patients with chronic heart failure." They found that "Clenbuterol was well tolerated and led to a significant increase in both lean mass and the lean/fat ratio."
In another human study, they gave high dose clenbuterol (up to 720 mcg) for three months. There wasn't a control group, but they found that "clenbuterol therapy increased skeletal muscle mass and strength."
This study, titled "Oral albuterol dosing during the latter stages of a resistance exercise program" found that "A higher lean body mass trend also occurred with albuterol from weeks 10-13."
Finally, this study give albuterol for 12 weeks to boys with muscular dystrophy. Outcome measurements included lean body mass and fat mass. They found that "Lean body mass was significantly higher for subjects following albuterol treatment compared to placebo treatment, while fat mass was significantly lower."
While there is definitely more evidence in animals showing anabolic/anti-catabolic effects from beta-agonists, there is plenty of evidence supporting the existence of the same effect in human skeletal muscle.
The best way to minimize muscle loss is to use anabolics while use cutting drugs.
That's one way. You can also use other anti-catabolic drugs while lifting heavy, making sure to keep protein intake high, and ensuring that the caloric deficit is not too low.
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Originally Posted by dfein
I have heard Trenbolone is #1, but you will go bald
Tren (and other androgens) will accelerate baldness only in those who are genetically susceptible to androgenic alopecia (i.e. those who will eventually go bald anyway).
720mcg is way too high though. The funny thing is that if you look at some medical articles, you will find some people have "overdosed" on 120mcg of Clenbuterol. I take 200mcg daily and I don't feel like my muscles have got any bigger. It does make my heart beat fast and it makes me sweat. It makes me breathe better too. For asthma medicine, it works quite well. My weight has not changed much. I spent money on it, so I'm just going to continue to use it until I finish it, but I don't intend on buying it again. I honestly think that to get the benefits from it, you have to use an insane dose which is perhaps life threatening.
A dose is only "high" relative to sensitivity. They didn't just start the guys on 720mg/day. They slowly titrated to that dose over 41 weeks. That means the dose increased LESS than 20 mcg/wk. Most bodybuilders will go up 20 mcg every day or two. The people in this study were using LOWER doses relative to their sensitivity than the average bodybuilder. The important thing is that as their tolerance for clen grew, their dose was slowly raised to compensate.
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Originally Posted by dfein
The funny thing is that if you look at some medical articles, you will find some people have "overdosed" on 120mcg of Clenbuterol.
There's nothing odd about that. If you take 120mcg all at once, without having used clen and become desensitized to it, it's going to have very strong effects.
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Originally Posted by dfein
I take 200mcg daily and I don't feel like my muscles have got any bigger.
Muscle grows at such an incredibly slow rate, you're kidding yourself if you think you're going to notice a difference in the rate of growth.
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Originally Posted by dfein
My weight has not changed much.
Well that shows you're not eating enough to grow, so even if you could notice notice a difference in the rate of growth, you're not eating enough to support that growth.
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Originally Posted by dfein
I honestly think that to get the benefits from it, you have to use an insane dose which is perhaps life threatening.
No, you don't. You just have to use a dose slightly higher than the dose that maintains homeostasis with your current degree of sensitivity.
A dose is only "high" relative to sensitivity. They didn't just start the guys on 720mg/day. They slowly titrated to that dose over 41 weeks. That means the dose increased LESS than 20 mcg/wk. Most bodybuilders will go up 20 mcg every day or two. The people in this study were using LOWER doses relative to their sensitivity than the average bodybuilder. The important thing is that as their tolerance for clen grew, their dose was slowly raised to compensate.
Even titrated, 720 mcg sounds lethal to me. It sounds like to me that it was only tolerable to these patients because they were experiencing heart failure and it was actually helpful. I don't know of any bodybuilder ever using 700mcg of clenbuterol. 200mcg daily to me accelerates my heart markedly, and I'm on my 2nd month.
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Muscle grows at such an incredibly slow rate, you're kidding yourself if you think you're going to notice a difference in the rate of growth.
Well that shows you're not eating enough to grow, so even if you could notice notice a difference in the rate of growth, you're not eating enough to support that growth.
I have noticed practically no change at all since using it. Food should not have anything to do with it because clenbuterol increases feed efficiency. Even severely malnourished rats had increased protein content at the expense of fat loss. All of them increased in weight despite eating little food. They even found recently that clenbuterol increases muscle size in rats independent of myostatin blockade. This was something in a dose like 200 mcg PER KG.
You shouldn't be losing much muscle, if at all. In contract to things like thyroid, DNP does not appear to be catabolic. Here are four references from the research, with quotes:
..
Just as T3 depletes Muscle ATP stores ,so dos DNP.
This has a weakening effect and may cause the muscle to become flat and smaller will have a negative effect on performance.
DNP works by uncoupling oxidative phosphorylation, which increases the body's temperature and metabolic rate (1). Synthesis of fatty acid in adipose tissue requires cooperation of mitochondria! and cytoplasmic enzymes. Mitochondria release energy from food molecules and transform energy into useable form via the production of ATP. ATP is the primary carrier of energy within your cells, and most cells die quickly in the absence of it. ATP in turn powers your muscles. What does DNP have to do with all this? DNP depletes your muscle's ATP (4), thus requiring your mitochondria to convert more energy from food molecules, and thus create more ATP to replace what was lost. This makes your body use more energy to do anything, from walking the dog to benching 315Ibs. In addition, since cellular levels of all these metabolites depend on the efficiency of mitochondrial energy conversion, a mitochondrial proton leak via uncoupling proteins (UCPs) could modulate Fatty Acid synthesis (8). Paradoxically, DNP inhibits muscle contraction, even though it accelerates the ATPase activity of isolated myosin (13). ATPase is the enzyme that causes ATP molecules to release the energy they store, and myosin is a protein that (along with actin) is responsible for both muscular contraction and relaxation.
Reality is unconcerned with how things sound to you. Titration to 700+ mcg is not lethal, by definition of titration. With increasing desensitization and andrenergic receptor downregulation, you could go even higher. Again, by definition of titration.
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Originally Posted by dfein
It sounds like to me that it was only tolerable to these patients because they were experiencing heart failure and it was actually helpful.
The tolerability has nothing to do with the heart failure. It has to do with slow titration over 41 weeks. Tachyphylaxis from clenbuterol is a well known phenomenon.
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Originally Posted by dfein
I don't know of any bodybuilder ever using 700mcg of clenbuterol.
That's because most titrate up over two, maybe four weeks, not forty-one weeks. If you were to titrate up to 700 mcg in just a couple of weeks, you'd probably have serious problems. It's pretty simple.
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Originally Posted by dfein
I have noticed practically no change at all since using it.
As was said before, muscle grows at such an incredibly slow rate, you're kidding yourself if you think you're going to notice a difference in the rate of growth. Say that naturally you're able to gain half a pound of muscle per week. That's hard enough to "notice" in the short term as it is. You think you'd be able to notice it if you added clen and increased growth 50%? Are you going to be able to notice an additional rate of gain of 1 lb per month? Hell no. That's why there's statistical analysis and well controlled studies to look at this stuff, because personal anecdote is essentially worthless. To top it all off, clen is typically used when people are dieting. When you're dieting, you're doing good to just maintain the muscle you have and not lose anything. You think you're going to notice if you're losing less than if you hadn't taken clen? Again. no. You're deluding yourself if you think that your uncontrolled anecdote has more value than several controlled studies that are in consensus. Adrenergic agonists clearly promote both protein synthesis and lipolysis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfein
Food should not have anything to do with it because clenbuterol increases feed efficiency. Even severely malnourished rats had increased protein content at the expense of fat loss. All of them increased in weight despite eating little food. They even found recently that clenbuterol increases muscle size in rats independent of myostatin blockade. This was something in a dose like 200 mcg PER KG.
Yes, clenbuterol is a strong repartitioning agent and you can fuel protein synthesis with your own fatty acids from adipose. However, that doesn't make you a bigger person. It makes you a leaner person. If you want to notice an increase in size, rather than a substitution of body fat for body protein, you're going to have to eat more.
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