Fraggle Taper Questions

[dennis]

Any of you pros want to try and answer these questions? Please feel free to................
I am at end of my cycle..325 mgs sust every 4 days 12 weeks.I have on hand 1000 mgs sust,3000 ius hcg,plenty of nolvadex.How would you incorporate this into a taper ? I was thinking Fraggle wanted me to try : Stop 325 mgs end of week 12,go to 100 mgs sust every week for 6 weeks using nolva for this period 6 weeks and hcg,then running another 4 weeks sust only at week 1 100,week 2 75,week 3 50,week 4 25 mgs.
The thing that confuses me is why not run the first 6 weeks at 100 mgs sust,then the last 6 weeks run the hcg with nolva and 4 weeks of that would be the slow taper.....??????Also a question I am not too sure I can answer..If I am injecting 100 mgs sust into my system can my own natural production come back on line? Or am I just keeping my self shut down for 12 weeks plus 10 more ???

[Fraggle]

Dennis,

During the 'stasis' of 100mg/week you use nothing other then testosterone. I would do the stasis for four (4) weeks, followed by four (4) to six (6) weeks of continually lower doses of testosterone. If you want to add Tamoxifene and/or hCG do it during this period. Research studies indicate that there is virtually no suppression of the HPTA at doses around 25mg/week. Easing yourself down towards this dose allows your body to play catch-up without depriving it of the necessary hormones. Clomiphene, Tamoxifene and hCG will all cause natural production to surge as well and can allow higher effective doses of testosterone without suppression. Of course, this occurs with the cost of associated side effects. The two most common methods of reintroducing endogenous production of intratesticular testosterone for fertility purposes use Clomiphene or hCG, introduced at around six (6) weeks after the cessation of androgen therapy.

My personal preference would be to do a four (4) week stasis, followed by six (6) weeks of reducing testosterone and introducing hCG at 1000IU three (3) x week for three (3) weeks starting in the last week of testosterone and extending for two (2) weeks after ceasing the androgen. This should bring you online painlessly and with the least amount of unwanted side effects. Don't use the hCG until your exogenous test dose is very low, otherwise you are simply reintroducing a highly anabolic environment with artificially inflated testosterone levels.

Can you continue to post your experiences with the taper for others, particularly emotion/physical changes or lack thereof.

Thanks much and good luck,
Fraggle

[Lizard King]

Very interesting. You going to start a taper log dennis? Just curious as to how well this will work.

[dennis]

Originally Posted by Fraggle

Dennis,

During the 'stasis' of 100mg/week you use nothing other then testosterone. I would do the stasis for four (4) weeks, followed by four (4) to six (6) weeks of continually lower doses of testosterone. If you want to add Tamoxifene and/or hCG do it during this period. Research studies indicate that there is virtually no suppression of the HPTA at doses around 25mg/week. Easing yourself down towards this dose allows your body to play catch-up without depriving it of the necessary hormones. Clomiphene, Tamoxifene and hCG will all cause natural production to surge as well and can allow higher effective doses of testosterone without suppression. Of course, this occurs with the cost of associated side effects. The two most common methods of reintroducing endogenous production of intratesticular testosterone for fertility purposes use Clomiphene or hCG, introduced at around six (6) weeks after the cessation of androgen therapy.

My personal preference would be to do a four (4) week stasis, followed by six (6) weeks of reducing testosterone and introducing hCG at 1000IU three (3) x week for three (3) weeks starting in the last week of testosterone and extending for two (2) weeks after ceasing the androgen. This should bring you online painlessly and with the least amount of unwanted side effects. Don't use the hCG until your exogenous test dose is very low, otherwise you are simply reintroducing a highly anabolic environment with artificially inflated testosterone levels.

Can you continue to post your experiences with the taper for others, particularly emotion/physical changes or lack thereof.

Thanks much and good luck,
Fraggle

Fraggle thanks bro,And yes I will keep my sust log active or just start a new one if the boys are interested.Would you mind taking the above info and relisting it like this ;
weeks 1-12 325 sust every 4th day
weeks 12-16....
weeks 16-20.....
I have 1000 mgs sust on hold for this taper.At this point I still feel bullet proof,and still gaining size and strength,sex drive is above average for me but not crazy high like at first of cycle.The past 2-3 weeks I have become a tad more emotional.I broke my personal best ever bench press last sunday..that felt awesome.I am hoping that using the taper I lose no weight or strength..we will see.

[bobvongule]

I am not a pro. In my experience though, that's a long ass cycle with all of that tapering. I don't think all of your natural test will come back even in week 20. And there is no way to really find out. Why taper if you have and plan to use HCG? Afterall isn't that why people taper? JMO. Use that 10 weeks to take a break and start planning another cycle. I have tapered in the past and I think it sucks. To me it felt like I was losing my gains (size/strength) at a slow rate. I used to stop at full dose at week 12. Cut the dose in half for 4 weeks after that. Still felt like I needed to PCT but everyone is different.

I am sure this taper plan will work. You might just get bored of using 100mg of sus for 6 weeks. Probably say fuck it I feel fine after 3 of those weeks and stop. Looks like you are just slowly decreasing the amount of test you are adding to your body followed by a decent PCT. I would think your natural test will be shut down for the entire 22 weeks plus some. Don't forget the long esters are still in you system. (half lives)

[dennis]

Bob, All advice is welcome..thanks for the input..I am worried about being shut down for 20 weeks.The main question I have is: CAN MY OWN NATURAL PRODUCTION START UP WHILE STILL USING SUST ? Fraggle; since sust has long life 3-4 weeks should I do 3 weeks at 100 and taper only 3-4 weeks ?

[bobvongule]

Unfortuately I am not a doctor and hell I never even played one on TV. It may start up with the low dose of Sus and the hcg but I don't think you will know if it's your natural test or the sus. If you are hell bent on a taper try it for 4 weeks by cutting the dose in half. Then run a PCT of HCG followed by clomid. Maybe I am 100% wrong but I have done this and it worked for me. I have been 245-260lbs. for the last 6 years or so. I am the guy in the gym who goes on and off cycles but never really loses size and strength. I attribute this to my PCT and continueous hard work whether on or off.

[dennis]

Originally Posted by bobvongule

Unfortuately I am not a doctor and hell I never even played one on TV. It may start up with the low dose of Sus and the hcg but I don't think you will know if it's your natural test or the sus. If you are hell bent on a taper try it for 4 weeks by cutting the dose in half. Then run a PCT of HCG followed by clomid. Maybe I am 100% wrong but I have done this and it worked for me. I have been 245-260lbs. for the last 6 years or so. I am the guy in the gym who goes on and off cycles but never really loses size and strength. I attribute this to my PCT and continueous hard work whether on or off.

It is a real shame that "everything you say is a lie"...Thanks Bob.

[prodigy06]

pfffff, forget it all. Just come off cold turkey like me, no pct = way to go.

[dennis]

Originally Posted by prodigy06

pfffff, forget it all. Just come off cold turkey like me, no pct = way to go.

The problem with that is Prod..YOU NEVER COME OFF !

[Fraggle]

Dennis,

Here's the week-by-week plan I would use:

Week 1: 100mg/week
Week 2: 100mg/week
Week 3: 100mg/week
Week 4: 100mg/week
Week 5: 60mg/week
Week 6: 40mg/week
Week 7: 30mg/week
Week 8: 20mg/week
Week 9: 10mg/week

If you desire, add in hCG at 1000IU 3 x week starting in week eight (8) or nine (9) and continuing for three (3) weeks.

The long ester shouldn't make too much of a difference here. Remember, endogenous production is a result of LH release stimulating hormone production in the leydig cells. LH is mediated in a reverse feedback loop. So as your exogenous testosterone drops lower, your production of LH starts to increase again. By doing this in stages, the leydig cells have an opportunity to respond at a pace they can handle. As I indicated earlier, studies demonstrate very little or no suppression of the HPTA with exogenous administration around 25mg/week. The gradual decrease in dosing will closely match the gradual increase in endogenous production, allowing for a seamless translation from on to off.

hCG can work in conjunction with a taper during the last few weeks to 'force' production to increase. But it really isn't necessary. LH levels rise rapidly when testosterone levels drop. The hCG simply overwhelms the leydig cells with a very large excess of hormone signaling.

Finally, unless you have an underlying hypogonadal issue, the testes will rebound fairly quickly, even after long cycles. The body abhors imbalance and attempts to recover homeostasis as quickly as possible. There are a few things that you probably do already, like avoiding alcohol, opiates and some forms of H2 blockers (anti-acid). All of which can decease LH and testosterone while increasing estradiol.

Hope I answered any questions about the theory behind this. If anyone wants something addressed in detail please post and I will endeavour to reply as quickly as possible.

Fraggle

[dennis]

Nolva weeks 5-9 I assume ????Would adex be helpfull at any point ?

[Fraggle]

You can use the Tamoxifene during weeks 5-9 if you desire. I think the taper or taper with hCG at the end works very well without it, though.

I wouldn't use any adex. Estrogen rebound is a serious issue with non-suicidal aromatase inhibitors. That rebound is responsible for much of the emotional upheaval. It's also largely superfluous, as testosterone levels should be in the 'normal' range, with reduced risk of gynocomastia.

Fraggle

[dennis]

OK Guys..I am going to try the Fraggle taper....I will start a log next week....

[TheBeat]

Originally Posted by Fraggle

Dennis,

During the 'stasis' of 100mg/week you use nothing other then testosterone. I would do the stasis for four (4) weeks, followed by four (4) to six (6) weeks of continually lower doses of testosterone. If you want to add Tamoxifene and/or hCG do it during this period. Research studies indicate that there is virtually no suppression of the HPTA at doses around 25mg/week. Easing yourself down towards this dose allows your body to play catch-up without depriving it of the necessary hormones. Clomiphene, Tamoxifene and hCG will all cause natural production to surge as well and can allow higher effective doses of testosterone without suppression. Of course, this occurs with the cost of associated side effects. The two most common methods of reintroducing endogenous production of intratesticular testosterone for fertility purposes use Clomiphene or hCG, introduced at around six (6) weeks after the cessation of androgen therapy.

My personal preference would be to do a four (4) week stasis, followed by six (6) weeks of reducing testosterone and introducing hCG at 1000IU three (3) x week for three (3) weeks starting in the last week of testosterone and extending for two (2) weeks after ceasing the androgen. This should bring you online painlessly and with the least amount of unwanted side effects. Don't use the hCG until your exogenous test dose is very low, otherwise you are simply reintroducing a highly anabolic environment with artificially inflated testosterone levels.

Can you continue to post your experiences with the taper for others, particularly emotion/physical changes or lack thereof.

Thanks much and good luck,
Fraggle

Fraggle, I just wanted to say that I love your thoughts on tapering and support your opinion and willingness to go against the standard PCT that everyone and their grandmother says you have to do.

I do however fail to understand your logic with your suggestion of when to use HCG. If hcg is capable of raising endogenous testosterone levels, then your body's own LH would do so the same. I understand the use of HCG while exogenous levels are high, but never could get why so many suggest using it as some sort of PCT when we are trying to get our bodies to reach homeostatis and would do so without external suppression? You obviously are a smart guy and could maybe feel me in on the rational or maybe we're both right somehow.

[Fraggle]

In men hCG is used a fertility drug in men with existing hypogonadism who would be fertile except long term testosterone treatment. At a recent conference it appeared that the international medical community is evenly split between either clomid or hCG. Basically doctor's choice and/or prescribing comfort.

In men without existing hypogonadism, just suppression through exogenous testosterone -- you're right, the body's own LH will increase testosterone levels. Those levels increase rapidly when exogenous testosterone (or derivatives) are withdrawn. If the taper is slow enough, there is really no requirement for hCG. However, if the individual has been on AAS for an extended period (years) the testes may require an additional push to begin functioning again. hCG certainly adds that extra kick. But if you're cycling like most people do, i.e. 12 weeks, It's not necessary.

Fraggle