Joes Suggestion For Newbs

[Joe West]

ok, so youre new to meso, maybe you want to get some roid advice. well, youve come to the right place. let me offer my help.

im 6ft4 and a relativly lean 280. im big but im not the biggest by any means, but i do know what im talking about enough to give the advice im about to give.

youre gonna see alot of stuff on these boards, unfortunalty, alot of stupid shit too. cant help but with so many ppl. by stupid shit, i dont mean ppl who disagree with me, i mean dumb shit. dangerously dumb shit. in the past on this board, there have been guys who purposely give dangerous advice for kicks. but the intent changes not the effect, and bad is bad.

first of all, im not here to tell you when to start, or if to start, your chemical adventure. it matters not to me, the effects on your health either way will happen so this wait 2 years stuff doesnt float IMO. if your gonna do it now, no reason in someone trying to talk you out of it.

so, with that said, lets begin:

first off, igf, insulin, hgh and other exotics shouldnt be apart of your first cycle. and in any case, slin should be the last drug you add, if you ever do. for your first couple cycles, the old school approach willdo.

so, since weve got that down, what now?

well, im a beleiver and follower in less is more. im not here to stop you from getting freakishly huge, or piss in your cheerios. i say this becausre what im about to say might rub ppl the wrong way:

there is no reason to use anything more that test, in whatever form you choose, for your first 2 cycles. no orals, no deca/tren/EQ,just test.

theres also, for your first cycle, no reason to exceed at the most 400mg a week. id settle somewhere in 200-300mg. right now im sure there are asses moving to the edge of the seat and a reply forming in some heads. save it a second.

at 250mg a week, youre already several times more that your natural production , even if you are 18. in the first year of intelliget training, even smaller guys can put on 30 lean lbs of muscle, rather easily too. so, if your already about 4 times more than that modest start, id say you can do all the growing you want.

see what im saying? and theres a point of diminishing returns too. there are guys in here doing 2-3 grams a week. i mean really, how much can you saturate test receptors? for anyone but serious wana be professional BBers, or maybe powerlifting, those doses are stupid.

ive got to the weight i am with cycles not even approaching 1 gram. i dont think anyone can argue the results.

bigger doses do not mean bigger gains at this time. you can get plenty big for cheap.

does it matter youve been training natural for 10 years? no. you will be taking supraphysiological doses either way.

the only intelligent way to do it is in increments. no matter what, you wont be huge overnight, so think of it as stages to a final evolution and you should do fine.

[dumbbellpress]

Joe, I like you a lot and I respect your posts. But 400mg/week of test, IMHO, is too little. For a newbie, if all they are using is test - nothing else (no orals, no other oils) - I recommend at the minimum 500mg/week of test, and preferably 750mg/week of test. I am also a firm believer that you MUST, and I mean MUST, have Nolvadex, Clomid and anastrozole on hand BEFORE you begin a cycle. If you do not have all 3 of these on hand before you start, then you must wait to start your cycle until you have all 3 of these on hand, PERIOD. NO EXCEPTIONS!!!!

dumbbellpress

[Joe West]

im absolutly with you on the ancillaries. those things he mentioned should be bought before the juice IMO, and buy too much. youll use it eventually, but if you end up need more than you planned, youll thank yourself.

as for the dose things: ppl are different. now i understand some ppl do need higher doses for whatever reason to 'feel' it. but id say most dont. also, part of the reason for the lower doses are stuff like: what if you have a bad reaction to a certain ester? i know some ppl get bad sick on cyp. some on enan. then test flu comes into it as well, how bad, if at all do you get it? sides like acne and gyno are much easier dealt with at lower levels, and for these ppl they dont know how bad theyll react.

and finally, either way, you get shut down. but, higher doses seems to shut ppl down harder. for the uninitiated this could be very bad. at lower dosesm although the shutdown still happens, it seems to be not as bad and things get back on faster.

may i also suggest everyone check out phreezers recovery sticky in this forum for more info on that.

[gman67]

Tremendous gains can be made on 250mg alone,,to say 750 is needed, I'm going to have to disagree with that. I've seen it way too many times to say that higher doses are needed to see appreciable results.

[Helterskelter]

Through studies on multiple boards, higher doses = higher gains.

Unfortunately, the higher does you use......your receptors will require more through time.

[gman67]

Originally Posted by Helterskelter

Through studies on multiple boards, higher doses = higher gains.

Unfortunately, the higher does you use......your receptors will require more through time.

I've seen those studies also...the more you take the more muscle you put on...if that were true I'd be one huge mother...doesn't work that way. There are too many other variables that come into play.

[thebignipper]

I'd just like to add that before beginning a cycle to read for yourself and then read some more. Don't rely on other people's advice alone. Exercise your brain a little, put together a cycle and then see what others think of it. Invest in a couple of books first and make sure you can afford the nutrition aspect before investing in juice. Proper diet is more important than buying a cycle.
Just my thoughts on the matter.

Mike

[dumbbellpress]

Suggesting 250mg/week of test for a newbie's first cycle is preposterous and ludicrous. 250 mg/week is barely supraphysiological - BARELY. Why anyone would recommend a newbie to only run 250mg/week of test only (no other gear) is absolutely bullshit and I definitely disagree with you GMan. No Ifs, Ands or Buts, I absolutely disagree with you GMan.

dumbbellpress

[bigcuv]

i've ran 250mgs of test a week on more than one cycle. And i got good gains. But i train hard. 250 is enough for a newby to see results.

[Cronk]

I'm with DBP on this one. I'm not advocating a beginner to start at a gram a week, but cmon, 250mg total a week is just too weak. I'm saying at least 500mg a week for beginners.

And I also have to help clarify Joe's post on recovery. 500mg a week is no different than 1000mg a week as far as recovery goes. Now, if you run either of those doses for an extended period of time, ie. 20 weeks or longer, then it would be wise to use hCG during your cycle as well as at the end of the cycle. Nolva/clomid could, and I say could, be run for longer than 30 days to help bring your own test levels back up.

[gman67]

Originally Posted by dumbbellpress

Suggesting 250mg/week of test for a newbie's first cycle is preposterous and ludicrous. 250 mg/week is barely supraphysiological - BARELY. Why anyone would recommend a newbie to only run 250mg/week of test only (no other gear) is absolutely bullshit and I definitely disagree with you GMan. No Ifs, Ands or Buts, I absolutely disagree with you GMan.

dumbbellpress

Oh man,,well you're certainly entitled to you opinion...you know, I'm not just spouting off at the mouth, I've actually done this myself. I was once that newbie who used nothing but 1cc per wk of test THAT'S ALL,,hell that's all I had, nothing more,,guess what, I gained 30pds. So please don't insult me with the comments,,I certainly wouldn't have mentioned that if I didn't know what I was talking about. And don't think I'm the only one I've seen it firsthand many many times.


If you guys don't want to believe that great, wonderful but don't tell me it can't be done.
And just for the record, I never suggested 250 for a first cycle, simply said tremendous gains can be made on 250.

[gman67]

You might want to check this thread out also...I guess all these guys are lying??






Who Actually Grew Off Of Test@250mgs/wk???

[thebignipper]

Originally Posted by Bigkarch

Sorry Dumbbelllpress, I respect you but you are wrong.....there are many studies that prove it is beneficial ....250-400 mg of test to a newbie is very beneficial given they have good diet and training....

I think a person's size and age have alot to do with it also. I think the younger you are the more testosterone you're producing. I, myself, am over 40 and think 250mg would effect me less than someone who is in their early 20's. I also think everyone has different body chemistry and that it can also come into play. Just my opinions. Please correct me if I am wrong on any of these points.

I also agree with Crank that HCG during an extended cycle is a must.

Hope everyone has a great week.

Mike

[demeurj]

IMHO, it is irresponsible to advocate mod-high dose cycles for noobs. While it is highly unlikely that you will "blow up" on 250mg/wk TEST, it's also highly unkikely to produce significant "bad" side effects. Why not let someone find out for themselves where their "sweet spot" exists? Further, the typical noob may be perfectly happy with 5lbs in 8wks.

The contention that low (<400mg TEST/wk) dose has no utility is pure BS. For many people it may be more than enough. But you won't know until you try it.

[dumbbellpress]

Sorry, Bigkarch, I respect you but you my friend are wrong. Suggesting a newbie to run 250mg/week of test only is bullshit.

dumbbellpress