Last Word on Inter-Cycles Orals?

[solo47]

Okay, okay, I've been looking about and all I get are a barrage of opinions with everyone sure of himself. Some insist using 10 mg of Dbol ED in the morning during PCT and later (still off-cycle) has no effect on one's returning HPTA (e.g., Manwhore). Others disagree. Some have insisted that small doses of Var between cycles or even during PCT won't hurt and may help mood at least. Most common, though, are the claims that up to 50 mgs of Provi ED has not been shown to negatively affect the return or function of one's HPTA.

I'm asking because I've been slipping a tab here and there of Proviron into myself despite being on a good PCT in the hopes it has no negative effects. It does have a positive effect on mood and even preworkout energy. Is there any solid experimental evidence that up to 50 mg ED of Provi has no effect on one's own HPTA? I know it can't help; in fact I probably think it at least slows things down. But, man, it does feel nice.

Solo

[dennis]

Originally Posted by solo47

Okay, okay, I've been looking about and all I get are a barrage of opinions with everyone sure of himself. Some insist using 10 mg of Dbol ED in the morning during PCT and later (still off-cycle) has no effect on one's returning HPTA (e.g., Manwhore). Others disagree. Some have insisted that small doses of Var between cycles or even during PCT won't hurt and may help mood at least. Most common, though, are the claims that up to 50 mgs of Provi ED has not been shown to negatively affect the return or function of one's HPTA.

I'm asking because I've been slipping a tab here and there of Proviron into myself despite being on a good PCT in the hopes it has no negative effects. It does have a positive effect on mood and even preworkout energy. Is there any solid experimental evidence that up to 50 mg ED of Provi has no effect on one's own HPTA? I know it can't help; in fact I probably think it at least slows things down. But, man, it does feel nice.

Solo

SOLO "has no effect on one's returning HPTA (manwhore)...
Dennis..Manwhore was on for life last time I checked.
SOLO "Man it does feel nice":
Dennis...So does cocaine !

[MaxRep]

Originally Posted by solo47

Okay, okay, I've been looking about and all I get are a barrage of opinions with everyone sure of himself. Some insist using 10 mg of Dbol ED in the morning during PCT and later (still off-cycle) has no effect on one's returning HPTA (e.g., Manwhore). Others disagree. Some have insisted that small doses of Var between cycles or even during PCT won't hurt and may help mood at least. Most common, though, are the claims that up to 50 mgs of Provi ED has not been shown to negatively affect the return or function of one's HPTA.

I'm asking because I've been slipping a tab here and there of Proviron into myself despite being on a good PCT in the hopes it has no negative effects. It does have a positive effect on mood and even preworkout energy. Is there any solid experimental evidence that up to 50 mg ED of Provi has no effect on one's own HPTA? I know it can't help; in fact I probably think it at least slows things down. But, man, it does feel nice.
Solo

There are numerous published studies showing low doses of Test and all other anabolics depress natural Test production. There's one I've posted before showing just 4mg/day of anavar depresses the HPTA. People like manwhore are IMO, complete idiots and irresponsible idiots at that, to advocate taking anabolics while on pct or as some sort of "safe" bridge. There is zero science to back up those claims and a great deal of science refutes what these idiots think. I guess ignorance is bliss.

As far as proviron, this is not an anabolic steroid and does not depress the HPTA. In fact, although you mention 50mg/day, that is actually a low dose and you may find the following study with 100-150mg/day for an entire year!!!... to be an interesting read.

Best regards,
MaxRep
__________________________________________________ ________________

1: Int J Gynaecol Obstet. 1988 Feb;26(1):121-8.
The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.
Varma TR, Patel RH.
Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K

Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment.

One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone,
85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone.
One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and
75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml).
Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy
whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group.
Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated.
There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function.
One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy.
Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.

[Reinheart]

Very good read, thanks Max.

[solo47]

Originally Posted by dennis

Solo: But, man it does feel nice.
Dennis: So does cocaine !

Not for long.

1. Blow never did much for workouts either despite all the razzy energy zinging around in my head.

2. AAS has longer term effects and helps workouts better.

My choice is Door Number Two! Lasts longer, keeps you stronger, and I don't have to go across town in a couple of hours to get more.

So Low

[solo47]

MR, saviour (in a secular humanist sense!), you are bathed in a halo of light. You not only made my day, you made my next eight weeks! (As it happens, I have several hundred of those blue square bisected tabs just calling my name [locked in a safe underground in Indian Territory, okay investigators?].)

Solo (happy now—>)

Originally Posted by MaxRep

There are numerous published studies showing low doses of Test and all other anabolics depress natural Test production. There's one I've posted before showing just 4mg/day of anavar depresses the HPTA. People like manwhore are IMO, complete idiots and irresponsible idiots at that, to advocate taking anabolics while on pct or as some sort of "safe" bridge. There is zero science to back up those claims and a great deal of science refutes what these idiots think. I guess ignorance is bliss.

As far as proviron, this is not an anabolic steroid and does not depress the HPTA. In fact, although you mention 50mg/day, that is actually a low dose and you may find the following study with 100-150mg/day for an entire year!!!... to be an interesting read.

Best regards,
MaxRep
__________________________________________________ ________________

1: Int J Gynaecol Obstet. 1988 Feb;26(1):121-8.
The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.
Varma TR, Patel RH.
Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K

Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment.

One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone,
85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone.
One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and
75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml).
Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy
whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group.
Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated.
There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function.
One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy.
Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.

[MaxRep]

Originally Posted by solo47

MR, saviour (in a secular humanist sense!), you are bathed in a halo of light. You not only made my day, you made my next eight weeks! (As it happens, I have several hundred of those blue square bisected tabs just calling my name [locked in a safe underground in Indian Territory, okay investigators?].)
Solo (happy now—>)

Plus, I'm sure you have a scrip for those little tabs.

While I'm not often called a saviour thanks for the thought.

Before you get too carried away, you should know proviron has been shown to increase cholesterol numbers. Also, while the studies generally seem to agree there's no suppression of the HPTA, I would exercise caution and stick with 50mg/day for no more than a few months at a time.

Good luck,
MaxRep

[bigbench]

Wow, i didnt know that prov had ZERO effect on the hpta. I thuoght it said that if affected it so mildly that it wouldnt bring down a normal one, but I did not know that it would allow another to RETURN to normal. That might be just what I need for my pct to help. I feel fine mentally, but i just miss a little bit of energy when i come off. That could just be the answer for me

[MaxRep]

I should probably clarify what I said to be more along the lines of no hpta suppression at low dosages. At moderate dosages of proviron, there doesn't seem to be much if any suppression going on. Although some people say it is suppressive, the published studies don't seem to support this line of thought when moderate dosages are used.

So again, Proviron (Mesterolone) is not a product to be taken thinking there is Zero effect on the HPT axis. There may well be some minor effect. I know of one study where the subjects were taking a very high dose of up to 450mg/day for 6 weeks and apparently there was a reduction in Testosterone production due to the high dose proviron. Like most products, effects are apparently directly related to dosage.

My guess is that with a modest dose of 50mg/day, a person will receive some benefits while experiencing minimal or perhaps almost no suppression of the HPTA. There are many published studies that seem to support this. Many studies suggest minimal or no suppression even at 100-150mg/day however, I have a hard time believing this as dosages go up. It's like taking Testosterone at 300mg/week and experiencing zero negative side effects, which most of us would agree with, and then saying there's also no negative side effects when taking 900mg/week which most of us would disagree with.

An interesting point regarding proviron is it has been successfully used as an anti-depressant drug. Apparently having a similar success rate as some drugs more typically used to tread depression.

Back to proviron and hpta, here's a study which hits on what I mentioned earlier regarding dosage and side effects. They too seem to think low dose proviron is side effect free while noting dosage and side effects are probably related.

Best regards,
MaxRep
__________________________________________________ ______________________
1: Andrologia. 1979 Jan;11(1):33-6.
Plasma cholesterol, triglycerides, FSH and testosterone levels of normolipemic male patients with decreased fertility treated with mesterolone.
Nikkanen V.

There were no changes in plasma cholesterol, triglycerides, FSH and testosterone levels of 24 healthy men treated with mesterolone for infertility during period of 6 months. The patients were normolipemic and the daily doses were 75 mg. No side-effects were noticed. Mesterolone seems to have too selective or too low androgenic effect with the doses used in order to have an influence on the lipid metabolism of men.

[solo47]

Originally Posted by MaxRep

Plus, I'm sure you have a scrip for those little tabs.

Absolutely, framed on my wall.

Originally Posted by MaxRep

While I'm not often called a saviour thanks for the thought.

In truth, if your advice was followed more closely, there'd be a lot less damage done to experimenters. So you could be classified as "one who saves" others, usually from themselves.

Originally Posted by MaxRep

Before you get too carried away, you should know proviron has been shown to increase cholesterol numbers. Also, while the studies generally seem to agree there's no suppression of the HPTA, I would exercise caution and stick with 50mg/day for no more than a few months at a time.

Cholestoral numbers go up during heavy cycles but only somewhat, well within the normal range. I'm one those not genetically disposed toward cholesterol build-up it seems.

Yeah, 50 mg/day is plenty, unless i've got a date.

Solo

[dennis]

"A Date"....what's that ?

[bigbench]

Yea Max, I should have clearified also about the dosage. I wasnt planning on adding 200mgs a day but maybe 50mgs to help with the normal sides of coming off cycle. I appreciate the read and info as always

[iluvdeadlifts]

Good info Max, will be looking into this a little more for after this cycle!

[solo47]

Originally Posted by dennis

"A Date"....what's that ?

Been married that long, eh, Dennis? If you're married, a date is a sticky little fruit with a pit from Turkey and most of the Middle East. If you're not, it's going through the motions of socializing with a female of the species (for most of us) away from our dwellings and maintaining dim hopes of a penetrating love connection.

So Low

[asih.net]

Dianabol (methandione, methandrostenolone, metandienone, and a host of other names) suppresses the HPTA. The use of dianabol in the hope that it will provide HPTA normalization is misguided. More details, later, can be provided, if requested.

However, a brief note on proviron. What evidence is there that proviron lacks androgenic activity. The literature presents this by the absence of proviron to influence significantly infertility, erythropoiesis, lipids, and sex hormones. Except for the obsessive compulsive that needs to take a substance, thus replacing an AAS with adverse HPTA effects with one that does not, proviron is a worthless AAS, useful for nothing. Proviron will not support or provide any basis for the return of HPTA function.

The quoted abstract from the study by Varma and Patel really does not give one any information. [Varma TR, Patel RH. The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men. Int J Gynaecol Obstet 1988;26:121-8.] The study is poor from the abstract alone. Please note that the statement, "Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated," refers unidentified group. The groups in the study include, "One hundred ten patients . . . had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients . . . had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone." Nowhere is there a group with elevated levels. Nonetheless, the cited effect is a "depressing effect" not stated as significant. Knowing the fluctuation in gonadotropin levels on testing even at a P<0.05 would not be meaningful. But it does go to the point that proviron has no adverse effect on the HPTA.

Mesterolone is useless for infertility. A year after the Varma study, 1989, the World Health Organization published a study demonstrating, "[n]o significant changes semen quality during the course of the study, apart from an increase in sperm concentration 3 months after the start of treatment. The increase was greatest among the placebo treated group, but did not differ significantly between treatment groups." [Mesterolone and idiopathic male infertility: a double-blind study. World Health Organization Task Force on the Diagnosis and Treatment of Infertility. Int J Androl 1989;12:254-64.]

In 1991, a study concludes, "Because similar semen improvement also occurred in the placebo controls, our findings cast doubt on the possible usefulness of high-dose Mesterolone treatment of idiopathic male infertility." [Gerris J, Comhaire F, Hellemans P, Peeters K, Schoonjans F. Placebo-controlled trial of high-dose Mesterolone treatment of idiopathic male infertility. Fertil Steril 1991;55:603-7.]

These confirm an earlier study from 1983. [Wang C, Chan CW, Wong KK, Yeung KK. Comparison of the effectiveness of placebo, clomiphene citrate, mesterolone, pentoxifylline, and testosterone rebound therapy for the treatment of idiopathic oligospermia. Fertil Steril 1983;40:358-65.] Treatment with the mesterolone (100 mg/day) therapy did not result in a significant increase in the mean sperm concentration or pregnancy in the partners.

Proviron is useless in promoting erythropoiesis (formation of red blood cell elements) and bone formation (a mixed effect of testosterone through the androgen receptor and estradiol receptor), both evidence of androgenic activity. Mesterolone (100 mg/d) is ineffective in raising hemoglobin and hematocrit levels significantly from baseline in individuals with hypogonadism. The study cites that Mesterolone did not increase serum testosterone (but also did not mention that there is a decrease). [Jockenhovel F, Vogel E, Reinhardt W, Reinwein D. Effects of various modes of androgen substitution therapy on erythropoiesis. Eur J Med Res 1997;2:293-8.]

As recent as 2003, mesterolone (100 mg/d) for 6 months administered to hypogonadal males failed to significantly raise bone mineral density (BMD). Treatment with testosterone undecanoate (160 mg/d), testosterone enanthate 250 mg (every 21 days), or a single subcutaneous implantation of 1,200 mg crystalline testosterone did result in BMD increases. [Schubert M, Bullmann C, Minnemann T, Reiners C, Krone W, Jockenhovel F. Osteoporosis in male hypogonadism: responses to androgen substitution differ among men with primary and secondary hypogonadism. Horm Res 2003;60:21-8.]

Erythropoiesis and bone formation are positive aspects of androgens useful under certain clinical conditions. AAS consistently have adverse effects on lipid profiles that are generally observed as a decrease in HDL (good cholesterol). In 1999, twenty years after the study cited by MaxRep [Nikkanen V. Plasma cholesterol, triglycerides, FSH and testosterone levels of normolipemic male patients with decreased fertility treated with mesterolone. Andrologia 1979;11:33-6.] proviron was found to adversely effect the lipid profile in hypogonadal men. The study by abstract analysis is hard to detail but an adverse effect of proviron is reported. Also, the study reports on serum testosterone levels with androgen treatments. Androgen substitution led to no significant increase of serum testosterone in the proviron group, subnormal testosterone in the testosterone undecanoate group, normal testosterone in the testosterone enanthate group, and high-normal testosterone in the crystalline testosterone group. The message is proviron did not affect the HPTA. [Jockenhovel F, Bullmann C, Schubert M, et al. Influence of various modes of androgen substitution on serum lipids and lipoproteins in hypogonadal men. Metabolism 1999;48:590-6.] The same author reports that proviron administration has no effect on serum FSH or testosterone. [Nikkanen V. The effects of mesterolone on the male accessory sex organs, on spermiogram, plasma testosterone and FSH. Andrologia 1978;10:299-306.]

I have said too much already. A further review of proviron literature will not change the use of proviron as an AAS for either anabolic or androgenic effects. Bottom line: Proviron is of no use for anything.

Thank you.