Last Word on Inter-Cycles Orals?

[solo47]

Okay, okay, I've been looking about and all I get are a barrage of opinions with everyone sure of himself. Some insist using 10 mg of Dbol ED in the morning during PCT and later (still off-cycle) has no effect on one's returning HPTA (e.g., Manwhore). Others disagree. Some have insisted that small doses of Var between cycles or even during PCT won't hurt and may help mood at least. Most common, though, are the claims that up to 50 mgs of Provi ED has not been shown to negatively affect the return or function of one's HPTA.

I'm asking because I've been slipping a tab here and there of Proviron into myself despite being on a good PCT in the hopes it has no negative effects. It does have a positive effect on mood and even preworkout energy. Is there any solid experimental evidence that up to 50 mg ED of Provi has no effect on one's own HPTA? I know it can't help; in fact I probably think it at least slows things down. But, man, it does feel nice.

Solo

[dennis]

Originally Posted by solo47

Okay, okay, I've been looking about and all I get are a barrage of opinions with everyone sure of himself. Some insist using 10 mg of Dbol ED in the morning during PCT and later (still off-cycle) has no effect on one's returning HPTA (e.g., Manwhore). Others disagree. Some have insisted that small doses of Var between cycles or even during PCT won't hurt and may help mood at least. Most common, though, are the claims that up to 50 mgs of Provi ED has not been shown to negatively affect the return or function of one's HPTA.

I'm asking because I've been slipping a tab here and there of Proviron into myself despite being on a good PCT in the hopes it has no negative effects. It does have a positive effect on mood and even preworkout energy. Is there any solid experimental evidence that up to 50 mg ED of Provi has no effect on one's own HPTA? I know it can't help; in fact I probably think it at least slows things down. But, man, it does feel nice.

Solo

SOLO "has no effect on one's returning HPTA (manwhore)...
Dennis..Manwhore was on for life last time I checked.
SOLO "Man it does feel nice":
Dennis...So does cocaine !

[MaxRep]

Originally Posted by solo47

Okay, okay, I've been looking about and all I get are a barrage of opinions with everyone sure of himself. Some insist using 10 mg of Dbol ED in the morning during PCT and later (still off-cycle) has no effect on one's returning HPTA (e.g., Manwhore). Others disagree. Some have insisted that small doses of Var between cycles or even during PCT won't hurt and may help mood at least. Most common, though, are the claims that up to 50 mgs of Provi ED has not been shown to negatively affect the return or function of one's HPTA.

I'm asking because I've been slipping a tab here and there of Proviron into myself despite being on a good PCT in the hopes it has no negative effects. It does have a positive effect on mood and even preworkout energy. Is there any solid experimental evidence that up to 50 mg ED of Provi has no effect on one's own HPTA? I know it can't help; in fact I probably think it at least slows things down. But, man, it does feel nice.
Solo

There are numerous published studies showing low doses of Test and all other anabolics depress natural Test production. There's one I've posted before showing just 4mg/day of anavar depresses the HPTA. People like manwhore are IMO, complete idiots and irresponsible idiots at that, to advocate taking anabolics while on pct or as some sort of "safe" bridge. There is zero science to back up those claims and a great deal of science refutes what these idiots think. I guess ignorance is bliss.

As far as proviron, this is not an anabolic steroid and does not depress the HPTA. In fact, although you mention 50mg/day, that is actually a low dose and you may find the following study with 100-150mg/day for an entire year!!!... to be an interesting read.

Best regards,
MaxRep
__________________________________________________ ________________

1: Int J Gynaecol Obstet. 1988 Feb;26(1):121-8.
The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.
Varma TR, Patel RH.
Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K

Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment.

One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone,
85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone.
One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and
75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml).
Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy
whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group.
Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated.
There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function.
One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy.
Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.

[Reinheart]

Very good read, thanks Max.

[solo47]

Originally Posted by dennis

Solo: But, man it does feel nice.
Dennis: So does cocaine !

Not for long.

1. Blow never did much for workouts either despite all the razzy energy zinging around in my head.

2. AAS has longer term effects and helps workouts better.

My choice is Door Number Two! Lasts longer, keeps you stronger, and I don't have to go across town in a couple of hours to get more.

So Low

[solo47]

MR, saviour (in a secular humanist sense!), you are bathed in a halo of light. You not only made my day, you made my next eight weeks! (As it happens, I have several hundred of those blue square bisected tabs just calling my name [locked in a safe underground in Indian Territory, okay investigators?].)

Solo (happy now—>)

Originally Posted by MaxRep

There are numerous published studies showing low doses of Test and all other anabolics depress natural Test production. There's one I've posted before showing just 4mg/day of anavar depresses the HPTA. People like manwhore are IMO, complete idiots and irresponsible idiots at that, to advocate taking anabolics while on pct or as some sort of "safe" bridge. There is zero science to back up those claims and a great deal of science refutes what these idiots think. I guess ignorance is bliss.

As far as proviron, this is not an anabolic steroid and does not depress the HPTA. In fact, although you mention 50mg/day, that is actually a low dose and you may find the following study with 100-150mg/day for an entire year!!!... to be an interesting read.

Best regards,
MaxRep
__________________________________________________ ________________

1: Int J Gynaecol Obstet. 1988 Feb;26(1):121-8.
The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men.
Varma TR, Patel RH.
Department of Obstetrics & Gynaecology, St. George's Hospital Medical School London, U.K

Two hundred fifty subfertile men with idiopathic oligospermia (count less than 20 million/ml) were treated with mesterolone (100-150 mg/day) for 12 months. Seminal analysis were assayed 3 times and serum follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) luteinizing hormone (LH) and plasma testosterone were assayed once before treatment and repeated at 3, 6, 9 and 12 months after the initiation of treatment.

One hundred ten patients (44%) had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone,
85 patients (34%) had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone.
One hundred seventy-five patients (70%) had moderate oligospermia (count 5 to less than 20 million/ml) and
75 patients (30%) had severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million/ml).
Seventy-five moderately oligospermic patients showed significant improvement in the sperm density, total sperm count and motility following mesterolone therapy
whereas only 12% showed improvement in the severe oligospermic group.
Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated.
There was no significant adverse effect on testosterone levels or on liver function.
One hundred fifteen (46%) pregnancies resulted following the treatment, 9 of 115 (7.8%) aborted and 2 (1.7%) had ectopic pregnancy.
Mesterolone was found to be more useful in patients with a sperm count ranging between 5 and 20 million/ml. Those with severe oligospermia (count less than 5 million) do not seem to benefit from this therapy.

[MaxRep]

Originally Posted by solo47

MR, saviour (in a secular humanist sense!), you are bathed in a halo of light. You not only made my day, you made my next eight weeks! (As it happens, I have several hundred of those blue square bisected tabs just calling my name [locked in a safe underground in Indian Territory, okay investigators?].)
Solo (happy now—>)

Plus, I'm sure you have a scrip for those little tabs.

While I'm not often called a saviour thanks for the thought.

Before you get too carried away, you should know proviron has been shown to increase cholesterol numbers. Also, while the studies generally seem to agree there's no suppression of the HPTA, I would exercise caution and stick with 50mg/day for no more than a few months at a time.

Good luck,
MaxRep

[bigbench]

Wow, i didnt know that prov had ZERO effect on the hpta. I thuoght it said that if affected it so mildly that it wouldnt bring down a normal one, but I did not know that it would allow another to RETURN to normal. That might be just what I need for my pct to help. I feel fine mentally, but i just miss a little bit of energy when i come off. That could just be the answer for me

[MaxRep]

I should probably clarify what I said to be more along the lines of no hpta suppression at low dosages. At moderate dosages of proviron, there doesn't seem to be much if any suppression going on. Although some people say it is suppressive, the published studies don't seem to support this line of thought when moderate dosages are used.

So again, Proviron (Mesterolone) is not a product to be taken thinking there is Zero effect on the HPT axis. There may well be some minor effect. I know of one study where the subjects were taking a very high dose of up to 450mg/day for 6 weeks and apparently there was a reduction in Testosterone production due to the high dose proviron. Like most products, effects are apparently directly related to dosage.

My guess is that with a modest dose of 50mg/day, a person will receive some benefits while experiencing minimal or perhaps almost no suppression of the HPTA. There are many published studies that seem to support this. Many studies suggest minimal or no suppression even at 100-150mg/day however, I have a hard time believing this as dosages go up. It's like taking Testosterone at 300mg/week and experiencing zero negative side effects, which most of us would agree with, and then saying there's also no negative side effects when taking 900mg/week which most of us would disagree with.

An interesting point regarding proviron is it has been successfully used as an anti-depressant drug. Apparently having a similar success rate as some drugs more typically used to tread depression.

Back to proviron and hpta, here's a study which hits on what I mentioned earlier regarding dosage and side effects. They too seem to think low dose proviron is side effect free while noting dosage and side effects are probably related.

Best regards,
MaxRep
__________________________________________________ ______________________
1: Andrologia. 1979 Jan;11(1):33-6.
Plasma cholesterol, triglycerides, FSH and testosterone levels of normolipemic male patients with decreased fertility treated with mesterolone.
Nikkanen V.

There were no changes in plasma cholesterol, triglycerides, FSH and testosterone levels of 24 healthy men treated with mesterolone for infertility during period of 6 months. The patients were normolipemic and the daily doses were 75 mg. No side-effects were noticed. Mesterolone seems to have too selective or too low androgenic effect with the doses used in order to have an influence on the lipid metabolism of men.

[solo47]

Originally Posted by MaxRep

Plus, I'm sure you have a scrip for those little tabs.

Absolutely, framed on my wall.

Originally Posted by MaxRep

While I'm not often called a saviour thanks for the thought.

In truth, if your advice was followed more closely, there'd be a lot less damage done to experimenters. So you could be classified as "one who saves" others, usually from themselves.

Originally Posted by MaxRep

Before you get too carried away, you should know proviron has been shown to increase cholesterol numbers. Also, while the studies generally seem to agree there's no suppression of the HPTA, I would exercise caution and stick with 50mg/day for no more than a few months at a time.

Cholestoral numbers go up during heavy cycles but only somewhat, well within the normal range. I'm one those not genetically disposed toward cholesterol build-up it seems.

Yeah, 50 mg/day is plenty, unless i've got a date.

Solo