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Old 05-29-2006, 02:40 PM
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Default Losing fat with Test

I've just discovered some place I can get some test! Now can any of you guys tell me if it would be possible to lose about 10 pounds of fat and gain 5 pounds of muscle in a 10 week test cycle? If so how would I be able to achieve this in regards to calories, Type of test, how much cardiovascular should be done?
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Old 05-29-2006, 04:05 PM
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Default Re: Losing fat with Test

I am 5 feet 10, 188LBs body fat 21% 29 years old
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Old 05-29-2006, 06:09 PM
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Default Re: Losing fat with Test

Quote:
Originally Posted by elgaringo
I am 5 feet 10, 188LBs body fat 21% 29 years old

Don't be mad @ my question but are you female? I ask because that's a ton of body fat for a 188 pounder.

In your particular case I believe it's not only possible but quite likely you can achieve those goals especially if it's your first go at it. Typically, gaining muscle and losing fat simultaneously would be considered unachievable because you can't be both Hypo and Hyper caloric at the same time. Testosterone changes the playing field considerably.

But to tell you the truth there is one mantra in the steroid underworld that I happen to agree with and that's that you shouldn't take steroids unless you're 12-15% bodyfat or less. You really need to get a handle on your diet before you explore this avenue. If you can't handle your body without it what makes you think you can handle it with it?--That's that!
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Old 05-29-2006, 06:25 PM
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Default Re: Losing fat with Test

natural training and diet will get you exactly what you want bro..post your question in the training (minus the testosterone) and one of our excellent training bros will help you.
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Old 05-30-2006, 07:32 AM
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Default Re: Losing fat with Test

yeah bro youll do a cycle of test and not even notice the new muscle under all ur fat.

no offense. But you should learn how to eat properly and mabee even get some ephedra and some caffine.

I honestly am not the expert in helping fat people get thin. But I wish you luck bro.
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Old 05-30-2006, 01:16 PM
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Default Re: Losing fat with Test

Quote:
Originally Posted by That's that!
Don't be mad @ my question but are you female? I ask because that's a ton of body fat for a 188 pounder.

In your particular case I believe it's not only possible but quite likely you can achieve those goals especially if it's your first go at it. Typically, gaining muscle and losing fat simultaneously would be considered unachievable because you can't be both Hypo and Hyper caloric at the same time. Testosterone changes the playing field considerably.

But to tell you the truth there is one mantra in the steroid underworld that I happen to agree with and that's that you shouldn't take steroids unless you're 12-15% bodyfat or less. You really need to get a handle on your diet before you explore this avenue. If you can't handle your body without it what makes you think you can handle it with it?--That's that!
I say 21% fat but thats just an estimation on one of them silly machines where you have to type in your height, age and weight. How is the machine supposed to know how much muscle you have on your frame? When you put it like that (a ton of fat) I realize I definately dont have 21 % fat! Ill find somewhere I can get a proper reading!
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Old 05-30-2006, 01:26 PM
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Default Re: Losing fat with Test

I think its a bit hasty for people to say that bf above 15% means your too fat to cycle Test has fat burning effects too.

New Research on testosterone and fat loss

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Every time one joins a new gym, invariably the salesperson hands over an index card with columns of check boxes and tries to pigeonhole the new member by asking, “Do you want to gain muscle or lose fat?” Of course the correct answer is “both:’ as nearly everyone looking for an improved physique wants to trim fat and gain muscle.


Melting Away Unwanted Pounds
As many drug-free bodybuilders have discovered, it’s nearly impossible for a trained athlete to accomplish both at the same time. Certainly, poorly conditioned individuals may see a gain in lean mass while losing body fat when first beginning an exercise and diet program, but that’s more a reflection of the dismal baseline conditioning of out-of-shape adults than any combined muscle-building/fat-burning effect.
However, for bodybuilders, models and athletes with access to performance-enhancing drugs, dramatic changes are regularly and predictably seen, with slabs of thick muscle replacing the unwanted pounds of fat that seem to melt away. Among the various hormones and drugs used, most fall within a single category of being a muscle builder, fat burner or ancillary drug used to manage potential side effects. There are rare exceptions
that cross over, such as clenbuterol and growth hormone, both of which build lean mass while reducing fat.12 However, the most potent anabolic drugs, steroid hormones, seem to have only one function— muscle building.
Yet, recent research suggests that a limited view of anabolic steroids is incorrect. In fact, a meta-analysis of the literature strongly suggests that anabolic steroids may directly aid in fat loss as well.
It’s easy to understand why people would consider anabolic steroids to be one dimensional— use of the correct anabolic steroid(s) at the proper dose(s) leads to impressive and apparent muscle growth when combined with resistance training. At the same time, most users see a thinning of the skin, as subcutaneous fat diminishes, providing a leaner appearance. The fat loss occurring during steroid cycles is immediately attributed to the more intense exercise program, stricter diet and other drugs or supplements used during the cycle.
Would athletes be interested to know that some of the fat loss noticed during a cycle was directly related to anabolic steroid use? Could the general public benefit from supervised programs using the combination of anabolic steroids, along with diet and exercise to combat the national obesity pandemic? Of course.

The Actions of Sex Steroids
Clearly, anabolic steroids have an indirect effect on fat loss. In other words, they affect other tissues in the body that then alter the energy balance such that fat loss occurs. Examples of this include gains in muscle mass increasing the basal metabolic rate as muscle is an active, calorie- burning tissue; or the increase in motivation to exercise that accompanies drug-aided success in the gym or on the playing field.
A paper reviewing the literature on a possible steroid-fat loss connection was recently published in the journal, Obesity Reviews.3 In this, the authors discussed in a detailed fashion many diverse investigations involving sex steroids and body fat.
As has been noted, from the moment Adam awoke in the Garden of Eden, men’s bodies differ from women’s.4 When fat gain occurs in young and middle-aged adults, men tend to deposit the fat intra-abdominally (think of the typical beer gut), while women tend to deposit fat in the gluteal-femoral region (buns and thighs). As most of the physical differences between men and women are due to the actions of sex steroids (estrogens, progesterone and androgens), it’s been speculated that sex steroids may play a role in this difference as well.
Not surprisingly, much of the research is dependent on animal stud ies. Unfortunately, the common laboratory animal species don’t have physiologies identical to humans.This explains why many promising drugs developed in the lab aren’t effective in human clinical trials.
For example, a hormone produced by fat cells called leptin was developed for obesity treatment after it was discovered to have a potent fat loss effect in rats. Basically, when fat stores are high, leptin levels increase— reducing appetite and increasing the metabolic rate to burn calories faster. By supplying artificial leptin to obese rats, an amazing amount of fat was lost.5 However, when artificial leptin was provided to obese humans, not only was it ineffective for the vast majority, but it was also discovered that most obese people have naturally high levels of Ieptin.6Therefore, while a solution to any future rat obesity problem was discovered, it seems that humans are resistant to rather than deficient in leptin.
Other examples of differences between lab animals and humans have been documented, such as the questionable absence of cc-2 adrenoreceptors in rats, confounding the use of animal data in predicting human response to drugs.3
Even restricting a review to humans may not be specific enough, as it’s been shown that men and women react differently to sex steroids. Much of this data comes from hormonal treatments given to transsexuals.Thus, it’s important for the sake of clarity, to focus primarily on human data using male subjects.

Genomic Effects
In the broadest sense, it can be stated that androgens are anti-adipogenic, while estrogens are pro-adipogenic. 3 In other words androgens (such as testosterone) reduce body fat stores and the development of new fat cells, while estrogens promote fat stmage and development.
This isn’t surprising, considering the dear differences between male and tnaIe bodies Beyond recognizing ihisfaci, it important to under-
stand why this difference exists if one is to try to manipulate body fat stores pharmaceutically.
The classic understanding of steroid hormones is relatively straightforward. Essentially, a steroid crosses the cell membrane, links up with a receptor that’s floating within the insides of a cell and the pair travels to the DNA.The steroid-receptor pair turns on certain genes, which create new proteins or alter cell function. But like all things in life, it’s actually more complicated than that. Steroids do cross into the interior of a cell and associate with receptors in order to travel together as a pair to the DNA. However, there are many different comodulators, molecules which change the effect of the steroid-receptor pair, either increasing or blocking the effect on the DNA. Receptors are also embedded in the cell membrane, which bind to steroids.7These membrane-bound receptors don’t travel to the DNA after linking with steroids; rather, they alter the cell’s sensitivity to other hormones, The scientific literature refers to the DNA-associated changes as genomic effects and the membrane-bound changes as nongenomic effects.
In order to assign any effect in fat cells to steroids, it was first necessary to prove that fat cells contained steroid receptors.This has been proven for androgens, estrogens and progesterone.89 Interestingly, different areas of fat have different concentrations of sex steroid receptors. Androgen receptors are highest in intra-abdominal fat, while estrogen and progesterone receptors are highest in gluteal fat regions.’0’1’ The steroid receptors are sensitive to steroid levels and increase in number when steroid levels rise.°”°This is very interesting as it explains why greater effects are seen in supraphysiologic anabolic steroid cycles and why aging men seem to have such difficulty keeping fat off. In the first case, fat cells are more sensitive to androgens when exposed to higher levels. In the second, not only do steroid levels fall, but the aged male is less sensitive to
the hormones.
The fat loss effects of androgens appear to involve both genomic and non-genomic processes. Classic steroid receptors allow steroids to affect the formation of new proteins. such as enzymes and hormones. Lipoprotein lipase and leptin are two examples of genomic control of fat balance by steroids.
Lipoprotein lipase (LPL) is an enzyme released by fat cells that breaks down triglycerides (fats) circulating in the blood, so it can absorb the free fatty acids and glycerol components of these triglycerides.’2 It’s been theorized that by decreasing LPL, lesser amounts of free fatty acids would be available to be absorbed by the fat cell. preventing a gain in fat stores. Studies involving other hormone seem to support this, as LPL rises with cortisol and insulin— two hormones known to increase fat stores; and is lowered by growth hormone— a fat-reducing hormone. 13 In women, this may be true, as estrogens given as hormone replacement to menopausal women reduce LPL levels and fat loss has been documented. Androgens (testosterone) actually increase LPL levels in women.14
In men, testosterone has the opposite effect, reducing LPL levels.’5This effect was not seen with the more potent androgen, DHT, leading researchers to investigate the possible role of aromatization. Aromatization is the enzymatic process by which testosterone is converted into estrogens. Aromatase is present in human fat cells.’6
It was discovered that the LPL-Iowering effect of testosterone isn’t present when aromatase is blocked. Given that DHT doesn’t consistently affect LPL and that the LPL-Iowering effect isn’t seen when an aromatase inhibitor is present, it’s evident that the LPL-lowering effect of testosterone is due in part to its ability to act as an estrogen precursor.’7 It isn’t understood why this discrepancy exists between males and females, but it demonstrates the need to consider gender when studying steroid effects.

CAMP and Phosphoinositide.
As was mentioned earlier, leptin is a hormone produced by fat cells. Theoretically, when leptin levels are high, the body receives signals to eat less and the metabolic rate is increased to facilitate calorie burning and weight loss. Yet, women have naturally higher levels of leptin and testosterone has been shown to lower leptin production.4The basic understanding of leptin would lead one to believe that women would then be leaner and morO capable of maintaining lower body fat content. Again, there’s a yet-to-be understood disparity, proving that fat loss and weight maintenance remain a mystery at the bio-molecular level.
Genomic effects, such as LPL and leptin require the affected cells to create new proteins and the effects are generally not seen for days to weeks. Non-genomic effects are much more rapid, showing an effect in minutes to hours.18
Non-genomic effects of steroids occur when receptors embedded in the cell membrane interact with steroids circulating in the blood. When this occurs, other nearby receptors or proteins are altered, so that the cell becomes more responsive to non-steroid hormones. Two examples to demonstrate the nongenomic effects of steroids include cAMP and phosphoinositide.
Cyclic-AMP, known as cAMP, is a secondary messenger in cells that carry the signal from membrane receptors to functions inside the cell. Epinephrine, the fight-or-flight hormone that makes the heart race when scared or excited, causes a potent fat release from fat cells that’s dependent on cAMR When fat celts are pre-exposed to estrogens, the fat release effect of epinephrine is lessened. 19 In part, this may be due to an estrogen-stimulated increase in ct-2- adrenoreceptors; a subclass of receptors that block lipolysis (fat release). Testosterone increases cAMP-dependent lipolysis, an effect clearly demonstrated in female-to- male transsexuals.2°
Phosphoinositides are also secondary messengers. Fat cells exposed to insulin store fat more easily and precursor cells mature into full-grown fat cells, due to the signal generated by phosphoinositides. For what they’re worth, rat
studies have shown that estrogens increase phosphoinositides, promoiing fat cell growth; androgens have the opposite effect21

Greater Benefits Than Realized
The field of study remains wide open, but the interesting studies noted above strongly support the idea of anabolic steroids having direct effects on fat loss. Considering the diverse effects of testosterone and the obvious differences between men and women, it’s not surprising to learn of this potential.
The greatest clinical promise for these findings lies with the aging population, as they suffer from age-related declines in many hormones.22 It’s likely that pharmaceutical companies will attempt to develop specific steroids or steroid-like molecules to take advantage of the fat reducing effects noted. By increasing the rate at which fat is released from fat cells, preventing the development of new fat cells and increasing the metabolic rate through the growth of muscle and lean mass, anabolic steroids may offer even greater benefits than have been realized to date.



References:
1. Asada N,TakahashiY, et at. Effects of
22K or 20K human growth hormone on lipolysis, leptin production in adipocytes in the presence and absence of human growth hormone binding protein. Horm Res, 2000;54(4):203-7.
2. Duncan ND, Williams DA, et at. Deleterious effects of chronic clenbuterol treatment on endurance and sprint exercise performance in rats. C/in Sd, 2000;98(3):339-47.
3. Mayes JS, Watson OH. Direct effects of sex steroid hormones on adipose tissues and obesity. Obes Rev, 2004;5197-216.
4. Rosenbaum M, Leibet RL Role of gonadal steroids in the sexual dimorphisms in body composition and circulating concentrations of leptin. J Cl/n Endocrinol Metab, 1999;84(6):1784-9.
5. Halaas JL, Boozer C, et at. Physiological response to long-term peripheral and central leptin infusion in lean and obese mice. Proc Nati Acac Sc 1997;94l16):8878-83.
6. Steinberg OR, Parotin ML et at. Leptin increases FA oxidation in lean but not obese human skeletal muscle: evidence of peripheral leptin resistance. Am J Physio/ Endocrinol Metab, 2002;283(1):E187-92.
7. Pietras RJ, Nemere I, et at. Steroid hormone receptors in target cell membranes. Endocrine, 2001 ;1 4:417-27.
8. McCann JP, Mayes JS, et at. Subcellutar distribution and glycosylation pattern of androgen receptor from sheep omental adipose tissue. JEndocrinol, 2001 ;169:587-93.
9. Anwar A, McTernan PD, at at. Site-specific regulation of oestrogen receptor-a and —b by oestradiol in human adipose tissue. Diabetes Obes Metab, 2001;3:338-49.
10. Dieudonne MN, Pecquery R, et at. Androgen receptors in human preadipocytes and adipocytes: regional specificities and regutation by sex steroids. Am J Physiol, 1998;274:C1645-52.
11. Watson GH, Manes JL, et at. Biochemical and immunological characterization of oestrogen receptor in the cytosolic fraction of gluteal, omental and perirenaF adipose tissues from sheep. J Endocrinol, 1993;139:107-15.
12. Goldberg lJ, Merket M. Lipoprotein lipase: physiology, biochemistry and molecular biology. Front Riosci, 2001;6388-405.
13. Enerback S, Gimble JM. Lipoprotein lipase gene expression: physiological regulators at the transcriptional and post-transcriptional level. Biocim Biophys Acta, 1 993;1 169:107-25.
14. venus PH, Brunzetl JO. Relationship between lipoprQtein lipase activity and plasma sex steroid level in obese women. J Cl/n Invest, 1988;82: 1106-1 2.
15. Ramirea ME, McMurry MP, et at. Evidence for sex steroid inhibition of tipoprotein lipase in men: comparison of abdominal and femorat adipose tissue. Metabolism, 1997;46:179-
85.
16. McTernan PB, Anwar A, at at. Gender differences in the regulation of P450 aromatase expression and activity in human adipose tissue.
mt J Obs Relat Metab, Disord 2000;24(7):875-81.
17. Zmuda JM, Fahrenbach MC, et at. The effect of testosterone aromatization on high- density tipoprotein cholesterol level and postheparin tipotytic activity. Metabolism, 1993;42:446-50.
18. Falkenstein E, Tittmann HO, et at. Multiple actions of steroid hormones a focus on rapid, nongenomic effects. Pharmacol Rev, 2000;52:513-56.
19. Pedersen SB, Kristensen K, et at. Estrogen controls tipotysis by up-regulating a2A- adrenergic receptors directly in human adipose tissue through the estrogen receptor a. Implications for the female fat distribution. J Clin Endocrinol Metab, 2004;89:1869-78.
20. Ethers JMI-I, de Long S, at at. Changes in fat cell size and in vitro lipolytic activity of abdominal and gluteat adipocytes after a one- year cross-sex hormone administration in transsexuats. Metabolism, 1999;48:1371-7.
21. Dieudonne MN, Pecquery R, et at. Opposite effects of androgens and estrogens on adipogenesis in rat preadipocytes: evidence for sex and site-related specificities and possible involvement of insulin-like growth factor 1 receptor and peroxisome proliferator-a ctivated receptor gamma2. Endocrinology, 2000;141 :649-
56.
22. Venneuten A, Goemaere S, at at. Testosterone, body composition and aging. J Endocrinol Invest, 1 999;22:1 10-6.
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Old 05-30-2006, 01:45 PM
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Default Re: Losing fat with Test

Quote:
Originally Posted by elgaringo
I say 21% fat but thats just an estimation on one of them silly machines where you have to type in your height, age and weight. How is the machine supposed to know how much muscle you have on your frame? When you put it like that (a ton of fat) I realize I definately dont have 21 % fat! Ill find somewhere I can get a proper reading!
Whoa! Those fucking machines (if they're those everyday scales) compare your body weight & height based on a presumed average of the yobo w/o any muscle hardness or mass. If you were built with hard muscle & BF in single digits at 5'10" you could easily weigh in at 220 lbs. Guess what the quarter-sucking machine would tell you? "You're way overweight! You must be fat."

We've got to start a quiet campaign to "disengage" those monsters.

Solo
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Old 05-31-2006, 12:10 AM
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Default Re: Losing fat with Test

your gym may have calipers..those are a little more accurate for body fat. those machines are a bunch of b.s. if you are 5'10'' those machines will tell you to weigh 160 or something ridiculous.
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Old 05-31-2006, 12:28 AM
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Default Re: Losing fat with Test

Buy some cheap digi calipers like fattrack or other brand. Prob not exact, but close enough. A 10 week cycle will work well, but listen to the others you can accomplish your goal without aas if you train and diet. Your only talking about 1lb/wk.

Good Luck,
GrowN
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Old 06-01-2006, 12:43 AM
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Default Re: Losing fat with Test

Ive lost fat using test and arimidex and limiting calories. Tren would work better.
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Old 06-01-2006, 01:56 AM
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Default Re: Losing fat with Test

testosterone is a hard on to loose fat on. it can be done, but its not as good as say testosterone with tren.

the main thing is the diet, no mater what you have to adjust your diet to loose fat.

also testosterone always gives me water retention, which makes me look fatter
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Old 06-01-2006, 01:17 PM
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Default Re: Losing fat with Test

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrowN
Buy some cheap digi calipers like fattrack or other brand. Prob not exact, but close enough. A 10 week cycle will work well, but listen to the others you can accomplish your goal without aas if you train and diet. Your only talking about 1lb/wk.

Good Luck,
GrowN
Yea, I'd cut hard for 8-10 weeks, then use the gear on a bulk - especially if it is not something you come by every day.

Otherwise, yes it might help you gain a few lb of muscle while on a calorific deficit, but you probably need to be 'dialed' in or not too close to your genetic limit or something (like naturally low-end T levels) to really see the benefit.

I would guess very person specific and you have to ask whether it is worth it. It might be if you have a hard time either gaining muscle or retaining muscle while cutting, but at your BF/size (even if it is well below 20%), I would guess that should not be too much of an issue.
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Old 06-01-2006, 01:35 PM
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Default Re: Losing fat with Test

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruper
Yea, I'd cut hard for 8-10 weeks, then use the gear on a bulk - especially if it is not something you come by every day.

Otherwise, yes it might help you gain a few lb of muscle while on a calorific deficit, but you probably need to be 'dialed' in or not too close to your genetic limit or something (like naturally low-end T levels) to really see the benefit.

I would guess very person specific and you have to ask whether it is worth it. It might be if you have a hard time either gaining muscle or retaining muscle while cutting, but at your BF/size (even if it is well below 20%), I would guess that should not be too much of an issue.
You bet.
Diet down then go on that test cycle.
I noticed myself when I was a little higher bodyfat, I got a bit fatter on cycle.
But testosterone does help regulate blood sugars soooooooo.......
Most all of the bodybuilders go on some form of gear during dieting to avoid catabolism.

It might be hard but not impossible to lose some fat and gain some muscle but if you were focused gaining or losing would be done better if you had a commitment to one or the other.

Generally when a guy is higher in Bodyfat and diets down he will lose more fat and less muscle than a guy that has lower bodyfat.
On the same token though a guy that has higher bodyfat bulking will gain less muscle and more fat than the leaner counterpart.

So, it can be done but with a compromise.
I myself would diet down, make your target weight then take advantage of the anabolic effects of adding the food back in while you are lean and build some muscle.

Carb cycleing is my favorite approach to dieting or the lower carb approach, works well for me.
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Old 06-01-2006, 03:24 PM
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Default Re: Losing fat with Test

cardio and diet are paramount. i only use 100 mgs of test cyp per week and stay very lean. too much test will cause estrogen build up and that in itself can cause fat.
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Old 06-02-2006, 10:39 AM
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Default Re: Losing fat with Test

Quote:
Originally Posted by mxim
cardio and diet are paramount. i only use 100 mgs of test cyp per week and stay very lean. too much test will cause estrogen build up and that in itself can cause fat.
This is what I've noticed as well....I never seem to be able to diet down as easily with test as opposed to without (using different aas).
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Old 06-02-2006, 04:05 PM
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Default Re: Losing fat with Test

Quote:
Originally Posted by elgaringo
I've just discovered some place I can get some test! Now can any of you guys tell me if it would be possible to lose about 10 pounds of fat and gain 5 pounds of muscle in a 10 week test cycle? If so how would I be able to achieve this in regards to calories, Type of test, how much cardiovascular should be done?
Wow...sure feels wierd to post on Meso again, been like two years now.

Anyway; elgaringo, I cannot stress the importance of diet. Without it you might as well put your alcohol and little cotton balls away because you are wasting your time.

With that being said, I am going to go againest what most everyone else has said on this thread. IF you are serious, plan a good diet ahead of time, dedicate yourself to a good workout plan and plan a proper cycle to include PCT; I think the addition of some test will help keep your body in an anabolic state while in a caloric deficit.

As for the rest of your questions...research my friend...research....
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Last edited by Vicious cycle : 06-02-2006 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 06-02-2006, 04:08 PM
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Default Re: Losing fat with Test

AAS wont do it for you. You need to put the work in.
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