New member, starting 1st cycle on winstrol

[get_som]

22 years old about to be 23 in less than a few months. About 6'0" - 6'1" and 165lbs or so. Basically what i'm wanting is to lean down a little more but also gain strength and muscle mass. I'm not fat now (obviously at 165lbs) but i'd like to lean up some more along with some bigger bi's, tri's, pecks, and the classic 6pack wouldn't be bad either. I have realistic goals, i know it's not going to be done over night, and i really don't feel the need to be extremely lean or "chisiled" but some definition would be nice.

Anyways i started a cycle of winstrol this past monday. It's 75mg, taken orally every day. As of right now i'm running it alone but i think i'm going to pick up some test (propanate? i think it is) by the weekend and run a 100mg shot mon, wed, and friday of every week to go along with the winstrol as i've read it's supposed to help with the mass and it's supposed to make the winstrol more effective and help with some of the joint pain.

Also i'm taking the fish oil to help some with the liver, and drinking the sixstar protein milkshake a few times a day mixed in whole milk and atleast a tablespoon of peanut butter mixed in for added protein and taste. The rest of my diet usually consists of a bowl of cereal in the morning with whole milk(either rice crispies or honey bunches of oats), needs to be something fast as i dont have time to cook, and sometimes i'll throw in a banana with peanut butter. As far as lunch it depends, lately i've been doing a few tuna sandwhiches (relish, and light salad dressing) on whole wheat bread, and for dinner well whatever is on the table. I don't drink very much soda, usually either water or juicy juice(sugar free). Also i was told to take some sort of amino acids and glutenol to help with recovery but haven't picked either up yet. Thoughts on both would be great.

As far as working out its' m-f for 45min to an hour at a time with the weekends off. No cardio at all at this point but i was told 20 minutes 4 times a week would be a good idea. I've heard people say don't run or job because the elivated heart rate is bad for gaining muscle and that it would be better to do a fast to moderate walk?

Any advice or help is greatly appreciated.

[get_som]

Also i need to add that i'll be taking tamoxifin for a post cycle. But should i run the post cycle between cycles or just wait until i'm completely done? Also how long should i run the winstrol cycle? The Test cycle will be a 6 week cycle and i hope to possibly start it this coming monday. Should i run the winny cycle as long as the test?

Also i've done some research but what kind of long term side effects could i be looking at here? Some people say they're bad, some people say they're not. I've read that a loss in sex drive is possible and sometimes getting an erection and keeping it could be a problem with the winstrol. Is this a real problem? And the joint paint and can also be a problem and long term side effect, is that true as well? Also is there anything i can take to help with recovery time?

[IAmTheWalrus]

You want to lean out at 165lbs? It sounds like you want everything to get that "harder" look basically....which can be accomplished without Winny and Test but since you've already got them....

The dosages look good.
- You should definitely be running Test Prop. 100mg every other day (EOD) not Mon., Wed., Fri.
- Rotate injection sites when you do this b/c Test Prop injections are going to hurt.
- Refer to the sticky posts on this board to find out more about cycles, injections, and recovery (PCT).
- If I were you I would be running Test for 8 weeks. You could do the Winstrol for 8 weeks but if you do it that long get some Milk Thistle for your liver as well. Drink A LOT of water on Winstrol. A lot.
- Nolvadex (Tamoxifen) should be taken post cycle... that's your PCT. You most likely will not need it during your cycle and shouldn't take it unless you start to notice a burning or itchy sensation in your nipples that could be a sign of gyno. Again, PLEASE refer to the sticky posts regarding PCT. Both Winstrol and Test Prop are short acting esters meaning they won't stay active in the body for long once you stop taking them. So start your PCT the day after your last injection of Test Prop.

The Winstrol should help you with strenght, vascularity and muscle tone. The Test Prop. will help even more with strength and mass as well. Good cycle for what you're looking for. The Test Prop should really be your bread and butter... Winstrol is just a nice add on.

Your diet will dictate how much you grow, how hard you get and how you look. Your diet sucks. If you don't have time to cook you're gonna have to make time. No more cereal. No more bread. And no more fuckin Juicy Juice. Keep your diet lean and eat more protien from food sources and not from shakes. The shakes are used to suppliment your protien intake. Eat more chicken, eggs, beef, tuna and such. Eat hard... lift hard.... and you should be pleased after 8 weeks.

I wouldn't worry about long term sides on a 6-8 week cycle. You'll have little to no bloating on this cycle so don't even worry about that. You won't have any erection or sex drive problems if you're running Testosterone. And the Nolvadex post cycle is to bring your natrual Testosterone levels back up to normal. So be sure to take that and you shouldn't have any problems. Joint pain could be a problem with Winstrol as well as cramps and headaches. So again... make sure to drink LOTS of water and take some Glucosamine for your joints. But it won't be long term unless you injure yourself. So make sure to take 15 minutes before each workout to stretch and warm up. Get some blood flowing in your joints and you will be fine.

Other short term sides to watch out for are acne and hair loss but again those are short term... if you experience them at all.

[MrSen08]

75mg of winny for a first time aas user is high IMO. You seem to have mixed ideas. You want to get big and cut. Use your cycle to do one or the other and not both you will see more results.

[get_som]

I thought bread was fine as long as it's whole grain wheat (rye) bread? It's not white bread or anything... Also what's wrong with juicy juice, it's 100% juice and no sugar added? I thought it was the sugar/starch that was bad? Also i know the whole milk isn't the best choice but it does have a hell of a lot of protein and i refuse to drink skim milk (aka water). Also as far as the chicken/beef and everything is adding spices going to be a problem? I know sodium makes you retain water and i put garlic on damn near every kind of meat, is that going to be a problem? If need be i have to run something else to lean up a little more i have enough clenbutrol to last for a while so i could always take it but the fact that it makes me kind of jittery at first and i hate to be twitchy at work so i haven't taken it for a while.

And no i wouldn't say i have mixed ideas. I'm not looking to get big and bulky but i would like to get bigger (especially upper body) because as you can imagine at 165lbs i don't have a hell of a lot of muscle mass. I'd like to be at about 180lbs that's with losing another 5lbs of fat.

Also what kind of workout should i be looking at? How much time should i give my body to recover inbetween workouts? I have been doing arms one day, legs the next, then abs/back and rotating them out with weekends off. Is that a good idea? Also i was told to run some kind of amino acid (not real sure exactly what it was) and the glutenol to help with faster recovery, anyone know anything about this? And what about the cardio, i was told i shouldn't get my heart rate to high so running/jogging isn't a good idea, a medium/slow walk for 20 minutes 4 times a week is what i need to do, anyone have any experience with that?

[IAmTheWalrus]

I see what you're trying to get at. You just want to get a bit "harder" and more defined. Gain some muscle without gaining fat. You can do that. What MrSen meant probably was that if you want to notice significant muscle gains then you would have to eat in such a way that would make it tough to maintain that "hard" look. Remember for the future that cutting and bulking are two different things. Always do try to that seperately for more efficiency. So you need to decide what you want.
Now you said that you want to be 185lbs. Winstrol and Test Prop aren't ideal if you want to gain 20lbs but that's another story. That's a lot of weight dude. If that's what you want to do... you can do it... but you have to eat accordingly.

No bread. Cut out any flour (even whole wheat flour). And 100% juice still means a shit ton of sugar. What do you think is in there? It's sugar dude. Fruit = sugar. So try to limit that. You can have some fruit before a workout for some energy. And there are plenty of low/zero sodium spices out there. Look for those.... you're not going to want much sodium doing Winstrol. Always look at the food labels of all dressings/spices to see how much sodium there is. When eating carbs... think sweet potatoes, brown rice, green veggies, and some pasta here and there. Try to eat about 300-350 grams of carbs a day from those sources. Eat protien at 2x your body weight. Eat A LOT of protien at EVERY meal. Then suppliment with a protien shake.

Don't take clenbuterol. And especially don't take it trying to gain 20lbs. Use your diet to keep you lean.

How much experience do you have with lifting? A basic routine is working one bodypart a day with 2 rest days: Chest, Legs, Arms, rest, Shoulders, Back, rest.

Every protien shake has plenty of Amino Acids in them and you'll be getting plenty from your food too. No need to suppliment. But if you want... suppliment Glutamine and Argenine. Research those to find what they do.

Again, how much cardio you do depends on what you wan to do. If you want to gain 20lbs then you shouldn't get too intense with the cardio. Cardio burns those calories you've force fed down your throat for the sake of building muscle. To make sure you're staying lean you can do cardio at 3x a week for no more than 30mins at a fast walk or elyptical machine.

High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT) is what you're talking about that is ideal for burning fat and keeping muscle. You can do some of that, but again, not a lot. Do some sprints maybe twice a week. Research it or there is a post on Meso called "Bodybuilding Rules" written by BigBench that you should find and read. He talks about HIIT and cardio there.

[get_som]

Well 20lbs is a large amount but i thought in a 8 week period that wouldn't be to bad? Also how long should i stay on the winstrol and the test prop? I have enough winstrol to last for 4 full months but i know for sure i dont want to run it near that long. Should i do a 1 month cycle, 6 weeks or what? Also how good are both of these supplements for maintaining muscle after the cycles are done? I've read that some steriods after you stop taking them most of your gains are lost, are winstrol and test prop the same way? Or will i be able to keep most of what i gain after the cycles are over?

[IAmTheWalrus]

I think you need to do a lot of research on these compounds fast since you've already started taking them. There's a lot of good info out there. Start by reading the steroid profiles on this site. They're kind of short so go to steroid.com for more extensive profiles.
Here's Winstrol
Here's Test Prop.
Test Prop is the same as any Testosterone but it has a propionate ester that makes it faster acting. You should notice results right away and you shouldn't have to worry about estrogenic side effects as much (water retention, fat gain, gyno). Because of this ester and the fact you have to inject it so frequently....it also tends to hurt much more than other compounds when injected. Remember I said rotate injection sites, for example: left glute, right glute, left quad, right quad, back to left glute and so on.

Don't do oral Winstrol for anywhere near 4 months b/c it's too hard on the liver. If you can get injectible Winstrol then it's ok. Again 8-10 weeks should be fine for a beginner. Run the Test Prop 8-10 weeks. I would stop taking Winstrol at week 6 if you're doing 8 weeks of Test. If you're doing 10 weeks of Test or more... take the Winstrol for the first 3 and last 3 weeks.

You're going to lose some gains after your cycle. That's all there is to it. But most of those gains are from the water weight that people put on during bulking cycles. That shouldn't happen with Winstrol and Test Prop b/c like I said they're not usually bulking drugs and don't make the user retain much water. It's not rocket science. Along with your PCT, just keep lifting and eating after you're done. PCT is very important. Please read the sticky posts here about PCT as it helps bring you back to normal and helps keep the muscle after a cycle.

[Bigkarch]

stay natural and deit and training is all you need right now....check out those two other forums bro...good luck

[Dzaster]

I think you need to step back and do some research bro..These next few months you plan to be on cycle instead you should get a solid workout routine, school yourself up on nutrition and anabolics, consistently train yourself to eat more and more each day (the juice isnt gonna put on the 20lbs it will just aid) How long have you been training?? What have those results been..At 165 lbs I dont think you need anything to "harden" up...this is a serious step your taking and if not taken seriously or correctly can limit your health and not to mention waste your money and steroids which you could use later with great results..Im not here bashing you, everyone wants to juice up and look great, but there are alot of things that go hand in hand with it..knowledge is power bro..by all means we are here to help you and want you to suceed, lets start off with some stats and a better diet and we can go from there, plenty of people can get you looking the way you want, then later after every means is exhausted go for the roids and get everything you can from them...good luck on your research, and ask away for anything...Welcome to Meso!!