Nolvadex & Clomid Take both or not...

[ucadam]

Why would a person need to take both of these products. Clomid & Nolvadex?

I have Deca 1 x 10ml + 1 x 100 tab 5mg D-Bol. + 10 tab Clomid... Im planning on getting
1 x 10ml of Deca or Sust. 250.

Which is best...?

[BBC3]

You cant be serious. Did make all 19 posts in a day?

Originally Posted by ucadam

Why would a person need to take both of these products. Clomid & Nolvadex?

I have Deca 1 x 10ml + 1 x 100 tab 5mg D-Bol. + 10 tab Clomid... Im planning on getting
1 x 10ml of Deca or Sust. 250.

Which is best...?

[Millard Baker]

Originally Posted by ucadam

Why would a person need to take both of these products. Clomid & Nolvadex?

Which is best...?

See: Ask Dr. Michael Scally, M.D. (February 2007) #1 - How Does Clomid Work?; Best Case Scenario After Clomiphene Protocol; Scientific Basis for HCG Timing and Dosage; Health Consequences of Long-Term TRT; Why Use Both Clomid and Nolvadex Together?

Why Use Both Clomid and Nolvadex Together?

Q: I have read that Clomid and Novadex are very similar products. Is this true? If so why would you need to take both?

A: The administration of antiestrogens is a common treatment because anti estrogens interfere with the normal negative feedback of sex steroids at hypothalamic and pituitary levels in order to increase endogenous gonadotropin-releasing hormone secretion from the hypothalamus and FSH and LH secretion directly from the pituitary. In turn, FSH and LH stimulate Leydig cells in the testes, and this has been claimed to lead to increased local testosterone production, thereby boosting spermatogenesis with a possible improvement in fertility. There may also be a direct effect of antiestrogens on testicular spermatogenesis or steroidogenesis.



Clomiphene is a synthetic derivative an estrogen. Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Tamoxifen is a pure estradiol receptor antagonist. Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as Clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The estrogenic action of Clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.


Perusal of the literature thus indicates that clomiphene acts in several ways in the human male; (a) due to its similarity of structure to stilbesterol it binds with receptor sites in the hypothalamus and pituitary, (b) It stimulates gonadotrophin secretion by acting on the hypothalamo-hypophyseal system, (c) the inhibitory effects of high levels of circulating estrogens (produced under the influence of clomiphene) on hypothalamo-hypophyseal axis are possibly prevented by its potent antiestrogenic behaviour. The result of these varied effects of clomiphene is an overall increase in gonadotrophin and estrogen secretion and accounts for their increase under clinical conditions.


In one study the administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels.



Cochran database summary showed ten studies involving 738 men were included. Five of the trials did not specify method of randomization. Antiestrogens had a positive effect on endocrinal outcomes, such as serum testosterone levels. Antiestrogens appear to have a beneficial effect on endocrinal outcomes, but there is not enough evidence to evaluate the use of antiestrogens for increasing the fertility of males with idiopathic oligo-asthenospermia.



In the over one-thousand patients I have treated for HPTA normalization after AAS cessation i have used the combination of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. I have used clomiphene citrate alone in many cases. I added tamoxifen to the protocol to see if I could get a better clinical response. This seemed to be the case although I have not had the opportunity to evaluate the data. When both compounds are used the clomiphene citrate is discontinued first and the tamoxifen is continued for 2 more weeks. as I stated in the post on hCG injections it is imperative to be tested while on the medications. thus one would be tested ~3-5 days before the tamoxifen expires. In the 1st stage described in the hCG post one tests for testosterone only. the serum T level determines whether or not the hCG is halted. In the typical situation the hCG is stopped and the CC & tamoxifen continued. the lab tests at the end of the oral meds is LH & T.

[ucadam]

WOW Great Info...

Thanks Millard....

[Conciliator]

Originally Posted by Millard Baker

\Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as Clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The estrogenic action of Clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.

Wow. I've known that this is Dr. Scally's position, but I never knew that this was his reasoning behind the use of clomid. Based on the research, his statements are incorrect. What he is describing is estrogen priming. it's when estrogen makes the pituitary more sensitive to GnRH, so that more LH is released for a given GnRH stimulus. This is well known to occur in females. Unlike females, however, men don't have a preovulatory period or spikes in LH. Estrogen priming does NOT occur in males. For starters, take a look at an authoritative reference work like Grossman's Clinical Endocrinology, which states that "In males, the situation is more straightforward... Oestrogens in the male reduce pituitary responsiveness to GnRH." You can't get much clearer than that. There is a stark contrast to the positive feedback that estrogen has in the pituitary of females.

Grossman's statement is corroborated by the most recent research on the specific effects of testosterone and estrogen on the pituitary and hypothalamus of healthy men. It was clearly shown estrogenic action at the pituitary has an inhibitory effect on LH output. In other words, estrogen decreases pituitary sensitivity to GnRH. Estrogen does not produce positive feedback as seen in estrogen priming in females. The paper stated in its conclusion that "These data confirm previous work from our group which ... showed [estrogen] has both hypothalamic and pituitary sites of negative feedback in the male." In fact, "negative feedback at the pituitary requires aromatization," as testosterone itself doesn't produce negative feedback at the pituitary.

Finally, if all that were not enough, there's a research study that directly examined the effects of nolva and clomid on the pituitary of human males. They infused the men with 100 mcg of GnRH and then measured LH output from the pituitary. The men taking nolvadex at 20mg/day had a significantly increased LH response to GnRH. In contrast, the men taking clomid had reduced LH output, a decreased sensitivity to GnRH. The researchers stated that "a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation."

All in all, I don't see how Dr. Scally could argue that he uses clomid for a beneficial effect of estrogen priming in males when both research and experts in endocrinology squarely contradict the notion. Clomid has an estrogenic effect at the pituitary, yes, but the evidence shows that it will serve to inhibit LH output (and thus inhibit HPTA recovery) in contrast to nolva. All else being equal, that would make nolva superior to clomid for PCT.

If anyone is able to contact Dr. Scally and ask him about this, I'd love to hear his response.

-Conciliator

[Quicksilver]

Google is my friend. It appears Texas revoked his license to practice in 2005 and fined him $190,000. Is he unrevoked now? He seems to be on a couple of websites. I mean he still has his MD.