PCT for Test / Deca cycle

[Bod]

Hello All,

What would you recommend for PCT for a test / Deca cycle?

I'm doing 250mg sust / 200mg Deca on Mondays and Thursdays. I will probably run the deca for 10 weeks and the sust for 11 or 12.

My cycles normally have pct at the end, but I suffer from testicular atrophy really badly and end up with a set of raisins in no time at all.

What would you recommend for PCT, during and after this cycle?

I've never run HCG before, but think I will be best using it throughout this cycle.

Any advice or experience?

CHeers

Bod

[Deacon]

I would suggest HCG 500 Ius eod from the date of the last test shot up to PCT - then a PCT with nolva 40 mgs 14 days followed by 20 mgs for 14 days

also a good trib product helps too

[That's that!]

I'm still not sold on HCG. Personally I think the negative feedback loop should be left alone as much as possible. I'm also not convinced that HCG helps the PCT along any better eventhough it fills your bag back up. In other words, I don't feel it "kickstarts" anything. Aesthetically, yes it's a good thing. Honestly, the only thing that REALLY works is time.

A good PCT imo for you would be as follows:

30-40 mgs/day clomid for 30 days starting exactly 10 days after your last shot.
20-40 mgs/day Nolva starting 2 weeks before your last shot.
A testosterone booster (as Deacon suggested) would also go along way in recovery.

You're obviously suseptible to atrophy, it may just be something you must either deal with or regroup and consider whether this is the life for you. Remember, Father Time is your best friend in total recovery.--That's that!

[kaly50]

i would switch your time intervals for your cycle to test for 10 weeks and deca for 12 weeks, but start the test at the 3rd week of starting your cycle to end up taking your last test shot the week after you last deca shot.

[elgaringo]

You say a good test booster would go a long way to recovery, can you elaberate on this please?

[solo47]

Originally Posted by elgaringo

You say a good test booster would go a long way to recovery, can you elaberate on this please?

There're plenty available in GNP or any store that carries supplements — especially if you listen to the glib salesperson. However, some will just stimulate the "lower half" of the HPT axis, meaning your nads & testosterone production w/o stimulating the hypothalamus & pituitary that are the source of our own natural hormone production line. Androgenic prohormones will do this, but then you don't want to use hormones to recover from hormones use, do you? It'd be circular. Minerals like zinc are said to encourage your own HPTA, but I doubt they do much. As I say, there're many compound products with various ingredients legally available, but mostly the primary ingredient is still Tribulus Terrestris, which will stimulate the whole HPTA causing it to produce both more androgens & estrogens. Some of the compounds include reputed anti-estros (like chrysin & saw palmetto berry extract) to keep the focus on andros, but I doubt they do very much. Just make sure the Trib intake is about 1000mgs each time & that the steroidal saponins is over 45%. It really helps, & so does a good dose of arginine-ornithine, especially at bedtime (said to stimulate production of your own GH). Always gives me vivid erotic dreams & makes me wake up with hard-on.

However, I've read that some claim Trib also needs a recovery time to really allow your own HPTA to take over again. But, damned the torpedoes, the whole reason we get into this game is to augment our own HPTA! So I'm sticking with Trib & argi-orni.

Solo

[solo47]

Originally Posted by solo47

There're plenty available in GNP or any store that carries supplements

Idiot, no wonder yer solo: That's GNC, not GNP.

Solow

[elgaringo]

Originally Posted by solo47

There're plenty available in GNP or any store that carries supplements — especially if you listen to the glib salesperson. However, some will just stimulate the "lower half" of the HPT axis, meaning your nads & testosterone production w/o stimulating the hypothalamus & pituitary that are the source of our own natural hormone production line. Androgenic prohormones will do this, but then you don't want to use hormones to recover from hormones use, do you? It'd be circular. Minerals like zinc are said to encourage your own HPTA, but I doubt they do much. As I say, there're many compound products with various ingredients legally available, but mostly the primary ingredient is still Tribulus Terrestris, which will stimulate the whole HPTA causing it to produce both more androgens & estrogens. Some of the compounds include reputed anti-estros (like chrysin & saw palmetto berry extract) to keep the focus on andros, but I doubt they do very much. Just make sure the Trib intake is about 1000mgs each time & that the steroidal saponins is over 45%. It really helps, & so does a good dose of arginine-ornithine, especially at bedtime (said to stimulate production of your own GH). Always gives me vivid erotic dreams & makes me wake up with hard-on.

However, I've read that some claim Trib also needs a recovery time to really allow your own HPTA to take over again. But, damned the torpedoes, the whole reason we get into this game is to augment our own HPTA! So I'm sticking with Trib & argi-orni.

Solo

Can you tell me what Trib is? I got argi orni. Is Trib short for something cos I cant find it on the internet?

[elgaringo]

Originally Posted by elgaringo

Can you tell me what Trib is? I got argi orni. Is Trib short for something cos I cant find it on the internet?

Anyone? someone out there must know.

[dvs33]

Originally Posted by elgaringo

Anyone? someone out there must know.

Tribulus..Stay away from the cheap stuff though.
Tongkat ali is said to give ya balls a kick start as well

[WillBrink]

Originally Posted by elgaringo

Can you tell me what Trib is?

A big fat waste of money, that's what it is.

[PreMier]

Originally Posted by That's that!

I'm still not sold on HCG. Personally I think the negative feedback loop should be left alone as much as possible. I'm also not convinced that HCG helps the PCT along any better eventhough it fills your bag back up. In other words, I don't feel it "kickstarts" anything. Aesthetically, yes it's a good thing. Honestly, the only thing that REALLY works is time.

A good PCT imo for you would be as follows:

30-40 mgs/day clomid for 30 days starting exactly 10 days after your last shot.
20-40 mgs/day Nolva starting 2 weeks before your last shot.
A testosterone booster (as Deacon suggested) would also go along way in recovery.

You're obviously suseptible to atrophy, it may just be something you must either deal with or regroup and consider whether this is the life for you. Remember, Father Time is your best friend in total recovery.--That's that!

Sounds good except Sust has a 18 day halflife so I would start PCT 18 days not 10 after your last shot, but it wont kill you to start on day 10 if you like.

[solo47]

Originally Posted by elgaringo

Can you tell me what Trib is? I got argi orni. Is Trib short for something cos I cant find it on the internet?

Originally Posted by solo47

As I say, there're many compound products with various ingredients legally available, but mostly the primary ingredient is still Tribulus Terrestris, which will stimulate the whole HPTA causing it to produce both more androgens & estrogens. Some of the compounds include reputed anti-estros (like chrysin & saw palmetto berry extract) to keep the focus on andros, but I doubt they do very much. Just make sure the Trib intake is about 1000mgs each time & that the steroidal saponins is over 45%.
Solo

Got it? Did you klik on the link?

Trib extract does have notable effects on me, in about an hour & a half, most of which will last about six hours (& probably beyond but less noticeable). WillBrink can make his own choices, but Trib is not expensive; I know that large doses of high percentage saponins (& maybe 10-20% protodioscin) raise natural Test levels: My oily skin, awakened libido, & lift desire tell me so.

Solo

[hackskii]

I just read that trib actually can inhibit LH, study came from a Doc.

I have tried trib and found it was absolutly worthless.


HCG is an awesome idea leading up to PCT.
The whole HPTA is supressed at the end of a course of gear.
LH recovers faster than testosterone production which is where the balls come into play here.

If you dont get your balls back in a hurry after you start your SERM's then you will have a much harder time recoverying.

OH, HCG does in fact raise natural test levels so I dont think Thats That know what he is talking about here.
HCG does mimic LH and to some degree FSH too, so get that HCG in there and run your SERM's as above.

I am in contact with a Doc on this board that has a awesome recovery plan for men that are hypogonadal from AAS use.
I am on it right now with awesome results..

It can take anywhere from 6 months to 18 months for the HPTA to fully recover on its own with no intervention.

HCG does havily aromitise too so you will need to take a Anti-E with that.
I really dont think 500iu of HCG EOD is enough.
I was doing 500iu a day and it was not working like I had hoped.

I am going to run my clomid @ 50mg twice a day 12 hours apart for 30 days.
I am also going to run nolvadex @ 20mg for 45 days.

I have full confidance that recovery will be 100% after that and I had smashed grapes for nuts.
Now they are impressivly huge after my 11 day of PCT.

[Deacon]

here is a good article on HCG read it;



Most of it come from people that don't understand the reason for using HCG during the cycle. As we can see by the Bro that started this thread, not try to call you out or flame you Bro, it's a common mistake with lots of people that don't understand make, then you have people that add to the misconception and it really gets confusing. It is not used to stop you from shutting down or to stimulate test production, it is used to keep the boys alive, which in turn give you one less thing to recover from during PCT. I'm not the pro on this either, but I have researched it and used it as well.

Here's the problem with using 1500iu or more in one dose, it desensitizes the testes to LH, not a good thing when try to recover. All the protocols I've seen that are for post cycle HCG use, use doses of 1000iu or more, with the 1000iu being used ed. Which will pretty much guarantee you'll be in the same situation as a one time 1500iu dose, since HCG has an active life of 64 hours. The cause of the desensitization is from raised estrogen, grant it you could add nolva to the mix, but now you are in the place of adding drugs to combat a side effect. When this can be avoided by using smaller doses during the cycle, but if you are using it during PCT you'll already be on nolva or could add it for recovery, yes this is true, but I'll shade some light on that after the study. Here's the study where I got this info.

Posted by hhajdo at S’ology

Differential effect of single high dose and divided small dose administration of human chorionic gonadotropin on Leydig cell steroidogenic desensitization.

Smals AG, Pieters GF, Boers GH, Raemakers JM, Hermus AR, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.

This study compared the effect of a single high dose of hCG (1500 IU) with that of the same dose administered in multiple small doses (300 IU, once daily for 5 days) on Leydig cell steroidogenesis. Administration of a single high dose of hCG to seven healthy men raised the mean plasma testosterone (T) level to peak levels 2.1 +/- 0.2 (SEM) X the baseline value at 48 h. Thereafter plasma T decreased to below normal (0.7 +/- 0.1 X baseline) 7 days after the injection. The mean 17-hydroxyprogesterone (17-OHP) level peaked at 24 h (2.5 +/- 0.2 X baseline) and then also fell to a nadir value of 0.6 +/- 0.2 X baseline on day 7. Reflecting the early accumulation of 17-OHP over T, the 17 OHP/T ratio reached its maximum (1.6 +/- 0.1 X baseline) at 24 h at the same time when plasma estradiol [(E2) 4.4 +/- 0.6 X baseline] and the ratio E2/T (2.7 +/- 0.3 X baseline) achieved their maximal values. Administration of 1500 IU hCG in five divided doses of 300 IU daily increased the mean plasma T levels to peak value of 2.1 +/- 0.2 X baseline at 5 days and the levels remained elevated thereafter. The response of T as reflected by the area under the curve was almost twice as great as in the single dose study (2844 +/- 360 vs. 1647 +/- 214). In contrast to the single high dose experiment, mean plasma 17-OHP levels in the divided dose protocol did not peak at 24 h but only gradually increased. As the increase of T exceeded the 17-OHP increase at almost all time intervals, no accumulation of 17-OHP over T occurred as in the single dose experiment. Instead the 17-OHP/T ratio fell to a nadir value of 0.6 +/- 0.1 X baseline on day 7. The initial E2 peak was absent in the divided dose protocol and the E2/T ratio only marginally increased. Considering both experiments together a close relation was found between the hCG-induced increases in E2 and 17-OHP (r = +0.88, P less than 0.001), as well as the ratio 17 OHP/T (r = +0.64, P less than 0.02).
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Think about this as well, HCG mimics LH, by using HCG during PCT you are mimicking LH to stimulate testosterone levels. This also sends a signal to the body that you have enough LH to stimulate testosterone production. So now you body thinks it's producing enough LH, so you're making the clomid and/or nolva of no effect to restoring your LH production. This is just my speculation, if someone has a study or some info that says different, go with it. I have come to this conclusion because of how the body signals itself on regulating the production of hormones.

We shut down our HTPA, because the body is telling itself that we have enough or more then enough testosterone, so it stops producing LH, then the testes athorpy, because of the negative feedback. So, yes your testosterone levels will be raised by the mimicked LH, but the clomid and/or nolva hasn't stimulated the raise of LH, because the body thinks it already has LH in the system to produce testosterone. So in theory, you could run PCT with HCG and never get you natural LH going to stimulate your natural testosterone levels, because your body told itself that it already had LH and didn't need to produce anymore. Basically what you have is the same as trying to get the HPTA going during a cycle with HCG, it's not going to happen. Body is signaling itself that there is enough testosterone already, no need to make more. Why would HCG mimicking LH be any different, when nolva and/or clomid are trying to stimulate LH, the body is telling itself it already has LH.

Here's a study showing nolva to work better then clomid, in stimulating LH.

Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men.

Vermeulen A, Comhaire F.

The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL. Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels. A significant increase in sperm density was observed only in subjects with oligospermia below 20 X 10(6)/ml and normal basal FSH levels. When basal FSH levels were increased or oligospermia was moderate (greater than 20 X 10(6)/ml); no effect on sperm density was seen. As sperm density increased, FSH levels decreased, suggesting an inhibin effect. Sperm motility was not improved by tamoxifen treatment. In five boys with delayed puberty, tamoxifen treatment appeared to activate the pituitary-gonadal axis and pubertal development.
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Do you guys see my point on how using HCG during PCT, isn't the best idea or using the 1000iu for 10 days before PCT, if you desensitizes the testes to LH, you're defeating the purpose of doing PCT. You need the testes to be sensitive to LH to get your natural testosterone back to normal. Trying to stimulate LH, when your are using a drug that mimics LH, doesn't sound like a good idea either.

We need to re-think PCT, the idea that 3-4 weeks is the standard of PCT and it works for all cycles, is not true, it may hold true for a beginner cycle of 400-500mg of test a week, but after that it's a hold new ball game. PCT should be run until your sex drive is back in full swing, this a good indicator that your natural test levels are back to normal.

I hope this didn't make it more confusing, this isn't the only way to use HCG, during a cycle in small doses to keep the boys alive, but it's the one I recommend and use, if that means anything