prog gyno

[beezil]

your body still needs some estrogen to function properly... just nuking the estrogen isn't the proper way to deal with it. Add the Cabaser to lower the progesterone. IMHO

[HDH]

Originally Posted by beezil

your body still needs some estrogen to function properly... just nuking the estrogen isn't the proper way to deal with it. Add the Cabaser to lower the progesterone. IMHO

If he's got it now, he has to do what is necessary to get rid of it. He doesn't want to wait for Dostinex because it will get worse. I don't even think progesterone is the case here on 300mg of deca EW or I would have told him to up the letro to 2.5mg ED and order the dostinex. This is only the third week.

HDH

[JohnTree]

Thank you gentlemen, I appreciate your input. Heres' a little more info to clarify. My first 2 weeks I frontloaded with 600 mg deca, and the 3rd week 400mg deca and now am at 300mg week deca for rest of cycle. From the start and here on out it's been 400 mg wk test . I've also 210mg week anavar. I'm near the end of my 3rd week. I had a blood test before I started but have not had one since. So I don't know my blood levels or if it is progesterone related gyno vs. estrogen. Any suggestions with the additional info?

If the letro is working how soon should I expect the nip soreness to go away?

[MaxRep]

Originally Posted by omegadog

hmm...ive heard of people using b6 saying that it actually lowers the prolactin levels developed...tried looking for some validity behind this and couldnt find anything...

might try the b6 with some caber on hand just in case...can never be too safe..plus i wouldnt mind some of the glorified side effects

Now you're confusing progestagenic gyno with prolactin induced gyno. Our conversation up to this point has been regarding progesterone and gyno, not prolactin.

However, since you bring up prolactin... there are multiple studies showing B6 does nothing to reduce prolactin levels. The only study showing any sort of reduction in prolatin with b6 is when b6 was injected intraveinously.

JT, your nipple soreness with Letrozole should be greatly reduced after about one week.

Best regards,
MaxRep

[beezil]

Originally Posted by HDH

If he's got it now, he has to do what is necessary to get rid of it. He doesn't want to wait for Dostinex because it will get worse. I don't even think progesterone is the case here on 300mg of deca EW or I would have told him to up the letro to 2.5mg ED and order the dostinex. This is only the third week.

HDH

HDH: You are right; in regards to dealing with the gyno at hand.

I was just stating that bro's need to manage their estorgen; not totally eliminate it.

I have read so many people, on many boards telling bros to take nolva and letro throughout their cycle with out even knowing if they are gyno susceptible.

[omegadog]

ill take ur word for it on the b6 issue ..ill be running a test (prop/test e) along with tren...taking armidex throughout and i have dostinex at hand also (most likely taking this 2x/wk also)...would you consider this to be sufficient in regards to preventing any gyno from occuring ?

[HDH]

Originally Posted by beezil

HDH: You are right; in regards to dealing with the gyno at hand.

I was just stating that bro's need to manage their estorgen; not totally eliminate it.

I have read so many people, on many boards telling bros to take nolva and letro throughout their cycle with out even knowing if they are gyno susceptible.

Actually, he is managing his estrogen. He stated that he is taking .62mg ED. That is 1 dose spread out over 4 days. That won't nuke the estrogen, 2.5mg ED will. He also waited to take the Letro until gyno symptoms were present like he was suppose to. You are right there are people that advise others to take it through their cycle without knowing.

HDH

[HDH]

Originally Posted by JohnTree

Thank you gentlemen, I appreciate your input. Heres' a little more info to clarify. My first 2 weeks I frontloaded with 600 mg deca, and the 3rd week 400mg deca and now am at 300mg week deca for rest of cycle. From the start and here on out it's been 400 mg wk test . I've also 210mg week anavar. I'm near the end of my 3rd week. I had a blood test before I started but have not had one since. So I don't know my blood levels or if it is progesterone related gyno vs. estrogen. Any suggestions with the additional info?

If the letro is working how soon should I expect the nip soreness to go away?

It usually takes me about a week for the soreness to go away. After about 4 days it usually starts getting better for me. If it doesn't start getting better, up the dose to 1.25mg ED.

HDH

[JohnTree]

Originally Posted by HDH

Actually, he is managing his estrogen. He stated that he is taking .62mg ED. That is 1 dose spread out over 4 days. That won't nuke the estrogen, 2.5mg ED will. He also waited to take the Letro until gyno symptoms were present like he was suppose to. You are right there are people that advise others to take it through their cycle without knowing.

HDH

Sorry for not being more specific. Actually I was going to take .62 eod but would ed be better to begin with? And would I continue the letro after the gyno symptoms subside?

[HDH]

Originally Posted by JohnTree

Sorry for not being more specific. Actually I was going to take .62 eod but would ed be better to begin with? And would I continue the letro after the gyno symptoms subside?

If you are sore right now .62mg to 1.25mg ED would be best. If you are sore at 3 weeks it is a good sign that this is a problem that you will have through out your future cycles. You might need to find a very low dose to keep it from returning. I always get it but I don't take anything for it until it is necessary.

HDH

[TheBeat]

Just had to chime in about the whole progesterone/prolactin managament discussion:

The first thing I want to point out for anyone considering is never to use Nolvadex while on a Progestin to stop gyno, nolvadex makes progesterone receptors sensitive and if you are having a problem with progesterone and not estrogen then this misinformation/advice is more than foolish, it could be harmful.

The second one is also a question. I have seen on numberous boards the recommendation for Dostinex to lower progesterone, while it does lower Prolactin extremely well, I have never seen a single study showing or saying that it did a good job at lowering progesterone. In ever study I have seen, usually related to hyperprolactemia, it shows a "slight, unrelevant lowering" in progesterone production at the hypothalmus causing a raise in the estrogen to progesterone ratio - we're talking a small change with no relevance to women wanting to concieve! I do not see how that would be of much use for progesterone lowering in bodybuilders, much less dealing with exogenous progesterone!; now I'm not saying that using dostinex to lower progesterone is wrong just that I have not seen it and would be intrigued to learn more, as everything I have seen and know show it not to be a good match for preventing progesterone.

Regarding your gyno issues now, use Letrozole and take care of it and know for next time that for you that you need a little more prevention so that you do not have to resort to extreme estrogen/progesterone lowering to fix the problem.

[MaxRep]

Originally Posted by TheBeat

The second one is also a question. I have seen on numberous boards the recommendation for Dostinex to lower progesterone, while it does lower Prolactin extremely well, I have never seen a single study showing or saying that it did a good job at lowering progesterone. In ever study I have seen, usually related to hyperprolactemia, it shows a "slight, unrelevant lowering" in progesterone production at the hypothalmus causing a raise in the estrogen to progesterone ratio - we're talking a small change with no relevance to women wanting to concieve! I do not see how that would be of much use for progesterone lowering in bodybuilders, much less dealing with exogenous progesterone!; now I'm not saying that using dostinex to lower progesterone is wrong just that I have not seen it and would be intrigued to learn more, as everything I have seen and know show it not to be a good match for preventing progesterone..

There are some indications that cabergoline will reduce progesterone levels. However, I will certainly admit that I mis-spoke when I earlier said something about studies showing cabergoline to be more effective than bromocriptine at reducing progesterone levels... What I meant to say is caber is more effective at reducing prolactin levels. I too am sometimes guilty of thinking of one and talking about the other.

Best regards,
MaxRep


1: Endocr Res. 1998 May;24(2):195-203.
In vitro production of progesterone and estradiol by rat granulosa cells regulated by cabergoline and prolactin
* Negishi H,
* Furuta I,
* Ushigoe K,
* Fujimoto S,
* Koide SS.
Dept. of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Hokkaido University School of Medicine, Sapporo, Japan.

Cabergoline (CG), a dopamine agonist, and prolactin (PRL) added in vitro to isolated granulosa cells from immature rats cultured in serum-free medium inhibited FSH-stimulated production of progesterone. The lowest effective concentrations of CG and PRL were 10(-8)M and 1 ng/mL, respectively. In combination, the inhibitory activities were additive. CG at 10(-8) M also suppressed estradiol production by isolated rat granulosa cells; whereas PRL did not. In conclusion, CG inhibits FSH-stimulated progesterone and estradiol production by rat granulosa cells.

1: Anim Reprod Sci. 2001 May 31;66(3-4):257-67
Study of the change of prolactin and progesterone during dopaminergic agonist treatments in pseudopregnant bitches.
* Gobello C,
* de la Sota RL,
* Goya RG.
Institute of Theriogenology, Faculty of Veterinary Sciences, National University of La Plata, 60th and 118th St., CC 296, 1900, La Plata, Argentina.

"In order to clarify the role of prolactin (PRL) and progesterone (P(4)) in the pathophysiology of canine pseudopregnancy (PSP) we designed an experiment, where we induced an abrupt pharmacological blockade of PRL secretion with dopaminergic agonists (DA) or placebo (PL). Thirty overtly pseudopregnant (PSPT) bitches were randomly allocated to three groups of 10 animals each: PL, bromocriptine (BR), and cabergoline (CA), which were treated with PL, 7.5microg/kg BR and 5microg/kg CA, respectively. On days 1, 7 and 14 (day 0: beginning of the treatment) all the animals were classified into grades of intensity of PSP clinical signs, considering serum or milk secretion and enlargement of the mammary glands. Presence or absence of treatment side effects were recorded and blood samples for PRL and P(4) determinations collected. Serum PRL and P(4) concentrations (ng/ml) of all the animals on day 1 were (least squares means [LSM]+/-S.E.M.) 17.70+/-2.05 and 1.13+/-0.13, respectively. During the experiment, serum PRL and P(4) concentrations decreased (day effect, P<0.05). During the experiment, serum PRL concentrations were lower in the DA treated group (BR and CA) compared with PL group (P<0.05)...."

[JohnTree]

Originally Posted by TheBeat

Just had to chime in about the whole progesterone/prolactin managament discussion:

The first thing I want to point out for anyone considering is never to use Nolvadex while on a Progestin to stop gyno, nolvadex makes progesterone receptors sensitive and if you are having a problem with progesterone and not estrogen then this misinformation/advice is more than foolish, it could be harmful.

The second one is also a question. I have seen on numberous boards the recommendation for Dostinex to lower progesterone, while it does lower Prolactin extremely well, I have never seen a single study showing or saying that it did a good job at lowering progesterone. In ever study I have seen, usually related to hyperprolactemia, it shows a "slight, unrelevant lowering" in progesterone production at the hypothalmus causing a raise in the estrogen to progesterone ratio - we're talking a small change with no relevance to women wanting to concieve! I do not see how that would be of much use for progesterone lowering in bodybuilders, much less dealing with exogenous progesterone!; now I'm not saying that using dostinex to lower progesterone is wrong just that I have not seen it and would be intrigued to learn more, as everything I have seen and know show it not to be a good match for preventing progesterone.

Regarding your gyno issues now, use Letrozole and take care of it and know for next time that for you that you need a little more prevention so that you do not have to resort to extreme estrogen/progesterone lowering to fix the problem.

What is the little more prevention consist of? Am I missing what you are suggesting for prevention somewhere?

[omegadog]

on the whole b6 issue...i wanted to share this with everyone...a reason why NOT to take b6 with your cycle as it can be counterproductive!

Allgood VE,
Cidlowski JA.
Department of Physiology, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill 27599-7545.

Recent studies have shown that vitamin B6 modulates transcriptional activation by the human glucocorticoid receptor in HeLa S3 cells. We have now examined the possibility that vitamin B6 might similarly influence transcriptional activation by the glucocorticoid receptor in other cell types, as well as gene expression mediated by other members of the steroid hormone receptor superfamily. We show that elevated vitamin B6 concentrations suppress by 40-65% the level of transcription mediated through the endogenous murine L cell glucocorticoid receptor, as well as the human receptor transfected into E8.2 and T47D cells. In contrast, glucocorticoid receptor-mediated transcription was enhanced 60-110% in mild vitamin deficiency. The level of hormone-independent constitutive gene expression was not affected by these same alterations in vitamin B6 concentration. These studies indicated that the transcriptional modulatory effects of the vitamin were neither restricted to specific cell types nor limited to the human form of the glucocorticoid receptor. We next determined if hormone-induced transcription by several other steroid receptors (androgen, progesterone, and estrogen receptors) was analogously affected by alterations in vitamin B6 concentration. Analysis of gene expression mediated through the mouse mammary tumor virus promoter revealed that transcriptional activation of both the androgen and progesterone receptors was reduced by 35-40% under conditions of elevated vitamin B6 and enhanced by 60-90% in deficiency, again under conditions where constitutive expression was unaffected. Using a different promoter, the estrogen-regulated vitellogenin promoter, we found that transcriptional activation of the estrogen receptor was similarly affected. Estrogen-induced gene expression was reduced by 30% under conditions of elevated intracellular vitamin B6 and enhanced by 85% in vitamin deficiency. Thus, vitamin B6 modulates transcriptional activation by multiple classes of steroid hormone receptors. The similarities in vitamin B6 effects on transcription mediated through different promoters, the mouse mammary tumor virus and vitellogenin promoters, suggest that this vitamin may modulate the expression of a diverse array of hormonally responsive genes. These observations together support the hypothesis that vitamin B6 represents a physiological modulator of steroid hormone action.
PMID: 1310983 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[HDH]

Originally Posted by JohnTree

What is the little more prevention consist of? Am I missing what you are suggesting for prevention somewhere?

Prevention is just an extremely low dose to keep you from getting it. Now that you have it, you are taking your estrogen pretty low to get rid of it.

HDH