Sticky!! tamoxifen not equal in mg to tamoxifen citrate

[PUMPED101]

This should be stickied.....

This is very important...to adjust your anit-e's during your cycle and your PCT after the cycle accordingly...you should find out how your UG supplier doses his nolvadex and adjust anti-e's and PCT accordingly..

please bump


ripped from AR board
"15.2 mg of Tamoxifen Citrate equal 10mg of Tamoxifen (nolvadex)

If a research Liquid manufactuer were unaware of this, and they suspend 10mg of Tamoxifen Citrate in 1 ml of solution and claimed a dosage of 10mg of Tamoxifen/ml then it would be underdosed to the tabs.

Of course if they claimed 10mg of Tamoxifen and added 15.2 grams of Tamoxifen citrate then they would be giving the correct dose of then 10mg of Tamox/ml relative to the tabs.

If they say 10mg of Tamoxifen citrate there not lying about the dose, it's jus not as much as the 10mg tabs of nolvadex.

These products are sold as research chemicals with the assumtion that the buyer takes all responsibility for the use of the product, As the buyer we should have some basic knowledge of the chemical research and the properties of the chemicals sold.

NOLVADEX_ (tamoxifen citrate) Tablets, a nonsteroidal antiestrogen, are for oral administration. NOLVADEX Tablets are available as:

10 mg Tablets. Each tablet contains 15.2 mg of tamoxifen citrate which is equivalent to 10 mg of tamoxifen.

20 mg Tablets. Each tablet contains 30.4 mg of tamoxifen citrate which is equivalent to 20 mg of tamoxifen.

http://www.fda.gov/cder/foi/label/1998/17970.pdf"

[test-one]

wouldnt mind seeing some UG labs come on this thread and state weather they took this in to consideration! good lookin out pumped. TTT

[meat250]

very interesting

Bump

[ninja900]

must read stuff for users. thanks

[makis]

toilet/basement labs... why i am not surprised? i remember a folk saying me "man most of the UG labs are trying to gain customers/trust and the only way to do it is offering better quality than normal gear" well judge yourself!

[jocko]

good read..

[MaxRep]

Someone else had asked about this a few weeks ago and I admit, I jumped on him about it. However, his terminology was misleading and I didn't realize this is what he was talking about.

Having said that, I really think this is no big deal. Few people here have actually ever used true "nolvadex" tabs. For those that have, I doubt there's much real world difference. The funny thing is that in all the studies that are done, they don't use nolvadex tabs either. They use Tamoxifen Citrate. And guess what, they generally use what we use which is 20mg/day of Tamoxifen Citrate. See the following for a few examples:
__________________________________________________ _____
In a 3-month crossover steady-state bioavailability study with tamoxifen citrate 10 mg twice a day versus tamoxifen citrate 20 mg given once daily, tamoxifen citrate 20 mg taken once daily has comparable bioavailability to tamoxifen citrate 10 mg taken twice a day.
__________________________________________________ _____

In the NSABP B-14 trial in which patients were randomized to tamoxifen citrate 20 mg/day for 5 years vs. placebo, the incidence of second primary breast cancers was also significantly reduced.
__________________________________________________ ______

So yes it would be true that 10mg Nolvadex tabs are comprised of 15mg's of Tamoxifen Citrate however, the studies are all done with Tamoxifen Citrate, not nolvadex.

MaxRep

[PUMPED101]

are these studies steroid related studies Maxrep?

[Slick Arrado]

Good post Pumped.

[artica]

I recently got 2 bottles from Goldlifter of what I thought would be 20mg nolvadex per cap. Instead the bottles read Tamoxifen Citrate 20mg per cap. So basically, this would add up to about 12.5-13.16mg of Nolva?

[MaxRep]

Originally Posted by PUMPED101

are these studies steroid related studies Maxrep?

Pumped, of course they're not steroid related although I think the need to reduce estrogen levels due to having breast cancer is far more crucial than the need to reduce estrogen for a bodybuilder. So if you're implying more would be needed for a bodybuilder over a cancer patient, I think just the reverse would be more likely.

As far as being aware there's a difference, sure, people should know 10mg of tamoxifen citrate is not exactly the same as 10mg of nolvadex. I completely agree. However, I think it's important for people to also know the standard 20mg/day in research studies comes from 20mg/day of Tamoxifen Citrate, not nolvadex. The standard recommendation of 20mg/day for bodybuilders comes from the scientific studies, using that amount of Tamoxifen Citrate. Therefore is it something to run around all concerned about, no... is it something to be aware of, yes... We are in complete agreement on this. I appreciate you bringing this up.

MaxRep

P.S. Pumped, I accidently hit edit instead of reply on your post so your post was messed up by the time I realized what happened, sorry about that.

[MaxRep]

Originally Posted by artica

I recently got 2 bottles from Goldlifter of what I thought would be 20mg nolvadex per cap. Instead the bottles read Tamoxifen Citrate 20mg per cap. So basically, this would add up to about 12.5-13.16mg of Nolva?

I don't know how the answer to a math equation can be a range...

The answer is 20mg's of Tamoxifen Citrate would be the equivalent of 13.2mg's (rounded off to the nearest tenth) of Nolvadex.

MaxRep

[PUMPED101]

ok since you kindly deleted my post that was making some good points.....oh well

you said "Few people here have actually ever used true "nolvadex" tabs. For those that have, I doubt there's much real world difference. The funny thing is that in all the studies that are done, they don't use nolvadex tabs either. They use Tamoxifen Citrate. And guess what, they generally use what we use which is 20mg/day of Tamoxifen Citrate. See the following for a few examples: blah blah"

Now i know many people/vets...myself incuding, that have used the "actual true nolvadex tablets"...presently i have been using for a while now, Generics (UK Limited), which are "true" nolvaldex tabs, tamoxifen, not tamoxifen citrate....many other vets who have been around before the UG boom, have used a lot of the "true nolvadex"...there is a lotmmore than a few people that have used many differnet types of real tamoxifen

also i think it is important that people adjust there dosages accordingly because there are many more studies using "true" nolvadex..otherwise known as "true nolvadex".... here are a few studies...don't know where you found yours but there are planty on "true" nolvadex.....and the reason i asked if it was steroid related was becuase i had already found plenty of info on tamoxifen used in studies....so i thought you already did an actual search on google..guess not

"Patients
Four postmenopausal patient groups were selected. The first group (group I) consisted of patients with breast cancer using tamoxifen 20–40 mg daily as adjuvant treatment. Menopause was defined as no menstrual periods in the preceding 12 months and oestradiol concentrations of < 0.10 nmol/litre. These patients attended the gynaecology outpatient clinic of the University Hospital Groningen from January 1995 until December 1998, as part of a gynaecological screening programme (n = 91). Outpatient hysteroscopy and uterine curettings or biopsies were performed in patients with an endometrial thickness of > 5 mm on ultrasound, which occurred in 62 cases. Endometrium was obtained in 32 patients (22 asymptomatic patients, 10 patients with vaginal bleeding), whereas in 27 patients insufficient tissue was obtained for assessment. In three patients with thickened endometrium on ultrasound, a hysterectomy was performed for other reasons. A total of 35 benign endometrial samples was included in group I. Group II comprised non-malignant endometrium from the uteri of 24 postmenopausal women with stage I cervical cancer, who had never used tamoxifen and were currently not using hormonal treatment. All cases were retrieved from the database files of the department of pathology, University Hospital Groningen, from 1995 until 1998. Group III consisted of 15 patients with breast cancer who developed endometrial carcinoma during or after tamoxifen use. Cases were obtained from the database of the Northern Dutch Cancer Registry from 1989 until 1996. In group IV, cases were retrieved from the database of the department of gynaecology, University Hospital Groningen, from 1991 until 1998; the group comprised patients with endometrial carcinoma who had never used tamoxifen and were not using hormonal treatment at time of diagnosis (n = 51). "

"OUTLINE: Patients receive oral tamoxifen once daily. Treatment continues for 5 years in the absence of disease metastasis (patients with known breast cancer) or a diagnosis of breast cancer (patients undergoing risk reduction).

"We are seeking women, with a family history of breast cancer, to volunteer to take part in a study to see if a drug called Tamoxifen can help prevent breast cancer. Tamoxifen has been widely used to treat breast cancer for many years. Now we want to see if it is effective in preventing the disease develop. We know that Tamoxifen does have some minor side effects, but we also know that these are only experienced by some women. We would not have been allowed to do this work if it was thought we were putting healthy women at unnecessary risk.This is The International Breast Cancer Intervention Study. (IBIS) Women are asked to come every 6 months to the Family History clinic where we monitor any problems they may have. The study is for 5 years and involves taking a tablet (either Tamoxifen 20 mgs. or a placebo) every day. I don’t know which tablet is given to whom, and a mammogram is offered every 18 months."

"The long-term hegemony of tamoxifen is being challenged, however, by the introduction of new and potent inhibitors of aromatase, the enzyme that converts androgens to estrogens (Fig. 1). Aromatase is present at high concentrations in the ovaries of premenopausal women. "

[PUMPED101]

any UG's reading this....what powder do you use?

[MaxRep]

Originally Posted by PUMPED101

any UG's reading this....what powder do you use?

Pumped, by your question here and your earlier statement:

"which are "true" nolvaldex tabs, tamoxifen, not tamoxifen citrate".

I have to ask... what are you talking about?

Nolvadex tabs are made of Tamoxifen Citrate. You're talking like you think there are two types of tamoxifen powder when in fact there is only one. That one being Tamoxifen Citrate powder.

The difference is dosage, as in the amount of tamoxifen that comes from tamoxifen citrate.

MaxRep