Steroid Forum: This is a discussion on Superdrol Vs Testosterone Cyp within the Anabolic Steroids forums, part of the extensive steroid information at MESO-Rx; I'll look into this at work later today with people doing research here and get back to everyone....
Alright guys tracked down some research for everyone on DHEA. From the information I gathered from people here, DHEA is a precursor to androstenediol and androstenedione. Both of which can then convert into testosterone, then other bad hormones down the line. But the crazy part is Androstenedione can convert back into DHEA when needed and vise versa, but not if it readily converts into androstenediol. My guess is the reason why you got such awesome results is your body is converting DHEA into androstenedione or diol and your paticular body has a strong binding affinity to a paticular androgen, but don't quote me on anything. But to answer another question for you too, its converting into the androgen's first before testosterone or estrone or estradiol. I've included a chart provided to me for you guys to see the whole process.
Thanks for the flow chart. Interestingly enough there was another one that was pretty good posted around here about 1.5 years ago. I am not sure if it read the same. I am, however, sure that I was not paying that good of attention to it as I was not aware off all my problems and the variables that exist. I was aware that progesterone was produced by the liver, but I did not know it broke down into androstenedione, and then Dhea to test, etc. I do think that naturally that road to testosterone production is very limited in men. Another note considering my recent review of this chart is that when realizing that DHEA is formed by the adrenal glands, and I believe solely. This must also be a minute way that testosterone is produced in men?? Make sure I am not missing something. The majority is manufactured in the testicles, correct? SO then you get to the testosterone block on the chart. With majority produced in the testicles, you then have DHT and E2 resulting. I know I am not lacking in E2, via bloodwork and visible water retention. However, my breast tissue does not seem to have an affinity to it. I hope to god that my prostate doesn't either considering the line of prostate cancer in my family. I wonder is there bloodwork to determine the amount of E2 that is being uptaked by the prostate???? With final regard to testicular created testosterone, I am sure I have enough DHT based on the hair growth on my shoulders over the last few years.
PROSTATE SECTION IGNORE IF NOT CONCERED THIS AREA:
It goes without saying that I am assuming that the prostate thrives and succeeds with DHT and not that it is not the cause of cancer. This is Dr Shippens idea that I have bet on. His point would be that to keep a prostate healthly one must give it the supply it needs and that only after a lack of causing cancer, it then no longer knows what to do with DHT and runs arry with further exposure to it. Hence once the cell is sick from lack of DHT it goes crazy and mutations now multiply when it is fed DHT. So what is E2's role in prostate cancer? What are the symptoms of E2 exposure to the prostate. Can I not squirt as good.?? Does the muscle become flacid and thus allowed to expand? hence contributing to enlargement.?? If E2 is the natural counterpart to DHT, is one really neutralizing the effects of the other. Or does one even mask the symptoms of the effects of the other thus rendering us unaware of the resulting effects? Hence in reality what you are getting is really a double, triple, or ten times the healthy dose of both? Too much of anything is never good. But which one is truely worse, or perhaps only E2 is the cancer culpret here. But you never knew the extent of the exposure due to DHT masking it's effects. Perhaps one would never get cancer regardless of the quantities of these hormones, as long as they were in a "proper" proportion? We all know that prostate cancers are mostly diagnosed after age fifty when hormones have declined. But has anyone stopped to corolate the data and document mens amounts of hormone, and what there actual proportions were at the time of diagnosis?? It has to be out there. So why is this data not mainstream yet? It is because hormone modulation is way to complex for the average layman, and most importantly, our medical system (BC/BS), which is the only system that stands a chance of helping with this (in comparason to socialized medicine), frowns upon a doctor even mentioning the word hormone, that is, until you are already diagnosed with Cancer, or heart disease. trust me. They figure that statistically you are already outliving your usefullness in society. The FDA wants you dead at 67, or whatever the current age of social security is. Has anyone looked to see if the FDA allowed amounts of rat feces per millionth in a pound of peanut butter has increased? I would not doubt it. Or better yet, what pesticides and herbicides these rats are eating these days and what their metabolites are? Get the point? This is the trickle down economics invoilved with large and increasing population numbers. This IS LOGANS RUN!!! Wakeup. The data IS HERE and available to a select few. Those with money and those that care to do the research. Still even if you can do the research, you need $$ as BC/BS will only allow you to take you health so far. They barely even pay for testosterone and only on really good policies. They will not pay for ancillaries and further hormone modulation necessary to correct your genetic imbalance. EVEN BETTER, WHERE IS THE DATA ON THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE TO BE 100 WITHOUT PROSTATE CANCER??? God forbid we had a world of people wanting to truely live better lives proactively doing something about it. Out healthcare would collapse tomorrow if it were covered. They pay for you to mitigate your death. Not to improve your health. That is up to us. WHERE IS THIS DATA?/?? I WANT IT NOW!!!!! enough said on the prostate.
NOW BACK TO THE THREAD:
Due to my lack of muscular and psychological response to obviously high levels of testosterone and DHT, and my obviously positive response to the "andro's". I have to assume that I either have a deficiency here, or that or that my body responds better to these for aggression and muscle building. My testosterone is definitely not back converting to Andro. CAN WE ASSUME THIS CHART FLOWS FROM TOP TO BOTTOM FOR A REASON? Does this chart state that although testosterone can convert to Androstenedione, that it would prefer not to. That it would rather flow down the chart and become DHT and E2? I am assuming so. For my body type for certain and I have proven this by experimentation.
Final notes and ideas from this thread and diagram. (1) I take a heavy dose of amphetamines daily which stimulates the shit out of the adrenals. Have I warped them in a way that they no longer produce heathy DHEA, or enough, or the timing of dispersement is skewed corrolating with amphetamine activity. (2) I also drink beer daily and consume plenty of tylenol as neccessary. These are taxing the liver. Have they altered my natural progesterone production? Under the influence of these drugs dose it produce Progesterone that is structurally defective, or in too small a quantity to last to the Andro phase of metabolization? What is the trigger, enzyme, or hormone combination to signal this process? Cause I guarantee you I have had enough progesterone in my body lately to go around for a few people, and its not causing an overwhelming rush of andro. AGAIN, I am assuming that the progesterone from the liver, and the DHEA from the adrenal glands are very miniscule in the body's testosterone production process, or, as to compared to the amounts produced by the testicles.
Conclusion is that if I am indeed having a deficiency in Androstenedione, it is most likely due to an adrenal malfunction probably brought on by long term Adderall use. And just because my DHEA reads within "normal Range" as far and those who decide have deemed, does that mean that there is enough there to spare for andro production, or that it is not "unhealthy" DHEA that can't make the conversion? Again I am also assuming that testosterone does not really want to turn back into androstenedione. If you look at the diagrams of each particular molecular structure, you can note that testosterone has one more element bonded to it. So what is going to be easier? To WORK and smash it with a hammer, so to speak. Or simply let it flow, grab and merge, or throw more on the "pile". My knowledge is obviously primitive, however, I am thinking if andro is a precurser, then why take a step back? After all, why take the highway when the highway is right there? Point is, an abundance of testosterone clearly does not result in an abundance of androstendione. At least for me. Kinda makes you wonder if Andro supps should be considered just as legitimate as any "steroid" we talk about on this board and loose their dicsounted name "prohormone". Obviously there are many hormonal durivatives this chart has skimmed over as a picture of only the forrest. If my theory is correct and I have plenty of DHT, then maybe Masteron is not the solution.. Supplementation of would certainly help to prove or disprove whether my DHT levels are there, if it is even further metabolizing, or if there is improper E2 proportion in play. So my quest continues. Thanks my rant for the month....
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrainHard2
Alright guys tracked down some research for everyone on DHEA. From the information I gathered from people here, DHEA is a precursor to androstenediol and androstenedione. Both of which can then convert into testosterone, then other bad hormones down the line. But the crazy part is Androstenedione can convert back into DHEA when needed and vise versa, but not if it readily converts into androstenediol. My guess is the reason why you got such awesome results is your body is converting DHEA into androstenedione or diol and your paticular body has a strong binding affinity to a paticular androgen, but don't quote me on anything. But to answer another question for you too, its converting into the androgen's first before testosterone or estrone or estradiol. I've included a chart provided to me for you guys to see the whole process.
I'm gonna try to keep this short and not confusing, but yes adrenal's produce DHEA, and in Med school they really didn't touch upon this that much, more or less using the expample of when a dog get's his balls cut off, the adrenals produce DHEA and it then can convert into testosterone so the dog still can function and have all the same abilities as before. But I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that since all of the pathways are negative feedback loops, that when the body lacks a certain amount of testosterone or androgen to function the adrenals kick out DHEA which the cells convert into a paticular androgen then to test, till the brain sends the signal back to the guys to produce more test. But the body is like a thermostat, constantly telling itself to shut this off, then turn it on. But hormone production is slow and it appears that there are huge gaps when in the production of hormones are needed, so just like the adrenals can release adrenalin when needed, i'm sure they can also release DHEA when it is needed when there is that gap between the brain and testies before that test production can get to the cells. I hope this makes sense. Let me know.
This is a good place to rant by the way. Also one of the Dr's I work for is involved in prostate cancer research. One thing is for certain, i'll have some good things to pick his brain about next month when he comes back from vacation.
I'm gonna try to keep this short and not confusing, but yes adrenal's produce DHEA, and in Med school they really didn't touch upon this that much, more or less using the expample of when a dog get's his balls cut off, the adrenals produce DHEA and it then can convert into testosterone so the dog still can function and have all the same abilities as before. But I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that since all of the pathways are negative feedback loops, that when the body lacks a certain amount of testosterone or androgen to function the adrenals kick out DHEA which the cells convert into a paticular androgen then to test, till the brain sends the signal back to the guys to produce more test. But the body is like a thermostat, constantly telling itself to shut this off, then turn it on. But hormone production is slow and it appears that there are huge gaps when in the production of hormones are needed, so just like the adrenals can release adrenalin when needed, i'm sure they can also release DHEA when it is needed when there is that gap between the brain and testies before that test production can get to the cells. I hope this makes sense. Let me know.
I found this today. This demonstrates the body's rate at which it can convert these to testosterone.
*The amount of testosterone formed upon incubation in human blood. (Source: Blaquier, J., Forchielli, E., and Dorfman, R., Acta Endocrinologica, 55, 697-704)
On a further note I agree with everything you have there. But keep in mind that the concept of DHEA existing as a "buffer", meaning to covert to whatever is neccessary seems to be becomming outdated based on what I have read. Basically research is starting to indicate that it has its own right as a hormone and thus may have a more specific intention with direction of conversion yet to be realized. I know that doesn't quite capture the read, but perhap you get this point? I did read that it is the same enzyme action that converts andro to test and test to andro. This seems to be readily accepted as covertible either way depending of stimulus involved. Also I am starting to get a little confused as indications of the negatives of Androstenedione indicate that it obviously can convert directly to estrogen without ever even turning into testosterone thus giving a second source of estrogen production. It also converts to test only at a rate of about 5%. I have not yet been able to determine what this is measuring. I am assuming that would mean that 100mgs or andro would equal approx 5mgs of test injected?? Finally on the positive I read (but never saw diagramed) that androstedendione can exert "direct androgenic activity", ( I am not sure how, never explained further). The Androstenediol seemed to be the optimal prohormone to be desired as it has a 15% conversion rate and can ONLY convert to testosterone prior to further metabolization.
I believe I also read that Pregnolone (direct liver product) is somehow more inclined to convert to androstenediol down the road, as it more chemically structure the same as such. It got me thinking that perhap I am looking down the wrong road and it is the diol that I am lacking as well due to drug induced liver stress potentially causing some of my problems.
With regard to the availability of dione or diol. It turns out that they are metabolized by two completely different enzymes. There was some reasearch questioning "then why not supp both?", but the consesus seemed to be forget the dione and just go with diol. there are also now brought up issues of receptor site binding and competition between the two, and others. I need to see if these can be measured in bloodwork, and recheck DHEA as well to see where this is all lacking. In short,however, it was only the dione that had direct androgenic activity capability.
Now there are a whole host of different enzymes involed with different structures and in the breakdown at different levels. I havent even delved into what is responsible for breaking DHT down further and how this applies. I am also questioning my self proported high level of DHT.? I am starting to think that I am obviously misjudging trying to determine my level of DHT based on body hair as this is probably genetically coded to individual specified DHT tolerance. While I may have the back hair of a man about to pop a vein due to DHT induced stress levels. The hair on my scalp in fairly intact and far from indicative. Nor do I have the energy ( I am fatigued if anything), or musclar aggression that I have felt in the past. With that said DHT is on the checklist now too. Genetically speaking, dont you wish you were on of those perfect specimens whos muscles responded to minimal amounts of DHT, and that your scalp and prostate were impervious?? You know, those rare guys you see that can get massive and have a full head of hair... They generally look young forever too. enough!!
My next conclusion is that I need bloodwork. I am also thinking that my issue is more enzyme related than due to any lack of. I wonder if you can purchase particular enzymes for supplementation, or if particular diet will yield them?? Anyone? And finally I am wondering if I have not given the concept of receptor site difficiency, failure, or blocking enough creedence.?? But it is even possible for that to account for a lack of psycholoical aggression. I do know that when I pin a lot of testosterone, my sex drive definitely goes off the charts. NOBODY gets the grief my wife does with my constant psychological attack designed to bring about satisfaction for my personal lust for sex when I have high test levels. So, that portion of the psychological aspect exists, regardless of the fact that I dont seem to have aggression in the gym. Perhaps I am just a lazy bastard!!!?
Trainhard, prostate issues are at the top burner for me. If you know of a doc that has seen or can access (even confirm if it exists), the data regarding the hormone levels of both prostate cancer diagnosed men, as well as healthy 80 year olds. I WOULD LOVE TO SEE!! I am beginning on my search for this now, while still pursuing the answer to my lack of androgenic response to testosterone.... Thanks.
I'm just gonna chime in here for a sec and say that my Director is the prostate guy, if there are specific questions you got lurking PM them over and I'll try and get some answers, and if we don't know them here and they don't exist yet, then it would probably be a new research project for us to start here. He leaves next week for Vacation so I'll try to get some info from him before he leaves. I'll respond more later today.
I figured I'd take the easy way and emailed my director to see if we have that information you were asking for. Also just thought of it, maybe the reason why you have a lack of androgenic response to testosterone is your body produces to much of the enzyme that converts testosterone to estrogen. Maybe after years of running cycles your body has adapted and changed around thinking it doesn't produce enough estrogen and or DHT, and or it thinks it has way to much testosterone and not enough DHT or estrogen . I'll check a bit more into this, as it is interesting.
Re: Superdrol Vs Testosterone Cyp 
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