Tren question here

[chazitup21]

How's it going bros?I was wondering exactly what Trenbolone Enanthate is?Is it good for bulking or cutting?Also would I be better off trying the Tren Enanthate or should I stick to Test Cyp or Sustanon?All the help is really appreciated!Thanx in advance.

[nj juice]

okayyyy......someone needs to do a little more reading.
Tren Enathate is tren with a longer ester than tren acetate, thereby foregoing the need to shoot ed, eod...Tren is predominantly used in cutting cycles as it has great fat burning abilities. Now as for what you should cycle.......what are you looking to do, bulk or cut? Is this your first cycle? Unless you're experienced i would lay off the sust, it should optimally be shot like eod. Test should be the base of all cycles, so regardless if you use tren or not, you should throw some type of test in there. Hope i answered your questions. Goodluck bro

[jocko]

no offense bro but tren e or tren a are serious aas please do some more homework before messing with tren

[andruw251]

Originally Posted by nj juice

okayyyy......someone needs to do a little more reading.
Tren Enathate is tren with a longer ester than tren acetate, thereby foregoing the need to shoot ed, eod...Tren is predominantly used in cutting cycles as it has great fat burning abilities. Now as for what you should cycle.......what are you looking to do, bulk or cut? Is this your first cycle? Unless you're experienced i would lay off the sust, it should optimally be shot like eod. Test should be the base of all cycles, so regardless if you use tren or not, you should throw some type of test in there. Hope i answered your questions. Goodluck bro

i wouldnt say it is "predominantly" used for cutting.....yes, its is great for cutting, but tren is also the best bulker i have ever used

[Joker]

Also, I would like you to show me any controlled clinical research or, for that matter, practically applied research to support the notion that "tren has great fat burning abilities." I think that maintaining a high androgen quotient keeps estrogen levels (specifically estrone and estradiol) lower and hence the propensity to accumulate bodyfat lower as well. But as far as trenbolone having any inherent fat burning properties, that is conjecture at best. Looks like someone else may need to do a little more reading as well.

Joker

[andruw251]

Originally Posted by Joker

Also, I would like you to show me any controlled clinical research or, for that matter, practically applied research to support the notion that "tren has great fat burning abilities." I think that maintaining a high androgen quotient keeps estrogen levels (specifically estrone and estradiol) lower and hence the propensity to accumulate bodyfat lower as well. But as far as trenbolone having any inherent fat burning properties, that is conjecture at best. Looks like someone else may need to do a little more reading as well.

Joker

this is true. most if not all of the talk of tren and fat burning is based on people's experiences rather than scientific evidence

[nj juice]

Originally Posted by Joker

Also, I would like you to show me any controlled clinical research or, for that matter, practically applied research to support the notion that "tren has great fat burning abilities." I think that maintaining a high androgen quotient keeps estrogen levels (specifically estrone and estradiol) lower and hence the propensity to accumulate bodyfat lower as well. But as far as trenbolone having any inherent fat burning properties, that is conjecture at best. Looks like someone else may need to do a little more reading as well.

Joker

You tell me i might need to do more reading based upon my saying tren has fat-burning abilities. Ok, i'll play along...From all the pages i've read, mostly being steroid profiles and other boards i'd say the notion of tren's fat burning abilities is split 50/50. Can you show me any controlled clinical research or, for that matter, any practically applied research to support your notion that tren has no fat burning abilities???

I put my opinion on here you tell me to support with fact, well then, i ask now that you provide the information to back up your notion. You might need to do a little more reading.......

[Joker]

Originally Posted by nj juice

You tell me i might need to do more reading based upon my saying tren has fat-burning abilities. Ok, i'll play along...From all the pages i've read, mostly being steroid profiles and other boards i'd say the notion of tren's fat burning abilities is split 50/50. Can you show me any controlled clinical research or, for that matter, any practically applied research to support your notion that tren has no fat burning abilities

Ok, now I'll play along with your line of thinking. I think that consuming dog shit will burn bodyfat better than any other compound on earth. Prove me wrong. You see the problem with your logic? In your above qoute, you state, "From all the pages i've read, mostly being steroid profiles and other boards i'd say the NOTION of tren's fat burning abilities is split 50/50." You just said yourself that it is, indeed, a notion. Yet in your original post, you present this NOTION as fact: Tren is predominantly used in cutting cycles as it has great fat burning abilities." I'm sorry sir, but the onus is on YOU to back up that statement with FACT. Not NOTION from steroid boards. And 50/50 ain't good enough for me my friend.

Imagine if the whole world operated that way? Pharmaceutical companies could manufacture all kinds of new drugs and make bullshit claims based on conjecture, I heard, my buddy thinks, the articles I read on the internet said. And imagine if they didn't have to back it up with double-blind placebo controlled research? Would you believe everything they told you about these drugs?

Originally Posted by nj juice

I put my opinion on here you tell me to support with fact, well then, i ask now that you provide the information to back up your notion. You might need to do a little more reading

Once again, you didn't originally present your "opinion" as such. You stated it as a fact, and it should be supported as such. Plain and simple. As far as backing up my notion is concerned, it's backed up by the mere FACT that there is no controlled clinical research to support the NOTION that tren burns bodyfat. Do you understand these principals now? It really is self-evident.

I worked in the supplement industry for a long time bro. And I'll tell you this: I've often said that if I took my dog's shit, dried it out in the sun, ground it into a fine powder, encapsulated it, put it in nice bottles with a fancy label and catchy name, and sold it under the premise that if you take it you'll put 50 pounds on your bench press in a month, not only would people buy it; they would take it and SWEAR TO GOD THAT IT WORKS! I've seen it a thousand times. THAT, my friend, is why the placebo-effect is both measurable and real. And also why it part of every LEGITIMATE controlled clinical study--hence the "50/50" NOTION that tren has great fat burning abilities.

As far as my contention that heightened androgen/suppressed estrogen levels in the body retard bodyfat accumulation, that can be supported with fact. If you would like to take this argument further, I'll take the time to post 20 references. But I don't think I should. You should do the reading. After all, it was you who jumped the guy in your first sentence with the statement, "okayyyy......someone needs to do a little more reading." So take your own advice and get the facts.

Joker

[nj juice]

Originally Posted by Joker

After all, it was you who jumped the guy in your first sentence with the statement, "okayyyy......someone needs to do a little more reading." So take your own advice and get the facts.

Joker

First off, i in no way jumped the guy with my statement. I would assume its pretty apparent why i told the guy to read up a little more. He comes on here with what presents itself as very little steroid knowledge and experience and asks several questions that can very easily be answered by reading up a bit and using the search button. People that are relatively new to this should investigate for themselves. This is the general thinking among the vast majority of members on boards such as this im sure. Yes, people are here to help you and answer your questions, but first you must make an attempt to help yourself.......please, let me know if im wrong in my thinking here?

Secondly, as i previously posted i have been looking around for the truth behind all the misconceptions about tren. If you do have fact behind your reasoning, i ask that you not hide it, but in fact share it, i'll admit i'm having a hard time finding anything substantial to back either side of this debate, so if you can shed some light on this, by all means, please do.

Lastly, id like to say ive seen too many threads like these turn into flame wars because no one wants to admit wrong, too stubborn, etc. If i am wrong, believe me i will admit it, and i reiterate to you, as i am quite curious, i would very much like to see the references you make mention to.

[demarco]

Hey Joker maybe NJ jUICE was speaking from experince reguarding tren. I'll tell you first hand that I feel that tren has fat burning effects for sure. I've been using tren ace with some test for the last eight weeks and I'm leaner than I've ever been before. My diet has not been geared towards cutting and I have not done any cardio but I'm gaining muscle AND loseing tons of bodyfat. Tren is truly awesome! I'm also using adex at so I have zero bloat from the test( using 1000mg a week of test) I would have to say the test, tren and adex is the best lean mass cycle I've ever done!!

Demarco

[Joker]

Originally Posted by demarco

Hey Joker maybe NJ jUICE was speaking from experince reguarding tren. I'll tell you first hand that I feel that tren has fat burning effects for sure. I've been using tren ace with some test for the last eight weeks and I'm leaner than I've ever been before. My diet has not been geared towards cutting and I have not done any cardio but I'm gaining muscle AND loseing tons of bodyfat. Tren is truly awesome! I'm also using adex at so I have zero bloat from the test( using 1000mg a week of test) I would have to say the test, tren and adex is the best lean mass cycle I've ever done!!

Demarco

Using tren and adex will do exactly what I said would happen if you heighten androgen levels/suppress estrogen levels. And remember that anastrazole is an EXTREMELY potent AI. I think it was Bill Roberts who went so far as to state that it is so potent that you can suppress estrogens too much, and that saliva tests should be used to determine proper estrone/estradiol/estriol levels. Throw in a potent androgen like tren and you have an environment that should keep bodyfat at bay and keep lean mass gains coming. But remember that this has everything to do with shifting your androgen/estrogen levels in heavy favor of androgens. All I am saying is that if tren (in any form) has some INTRINSIC fat burning ability, please quantify it and define its mechanisms of action for me.

This same argument used to be made about primobolan acetate. Remember the stories of guys crushing the tabs into a powder, adding dmso, applying it to fatty pockets, and wrapping themselves in cellophane? Please.... Nevermind that primobolan has a very good AR binding affinity--that wouldn't have anything to do with it . So if I put together a cycle of Test, tren, primobolan, masteron, anavar, and proviron (hey...that's my current cycle!), and I lean out, is it because these compounds "burn" bodyfat? Or is it because I pushed my estrogens into the toilet? I can't even imagine if I threw in some adex.

Look at menopausal women--they have a similar effect with progesterone. Although their estrogen levels fall 40-60% during menopause, it still leaves them with plenty to function properly. But their progesterone levels fall steeply from the late twenties through menopause. (Progesterone and testosterone have the same A-ring in their molecules, so they share a commonality of receptor sites.) This leaves them estrogen dominant/progesterone deficient. And look what invariably happens: they get a nice "pouch" in the mid-section, bodyfat accumulates in the hips and thighs and upper arms and all the areas they are prone to gain fatty tissue (among many other pathologic changes). Put a woman on synthetic estrogens or most BC pills, and good luck getting her to lean out. Now put a woman on nolvadex and watch what happens. Voila! Problem solved. Same problem some guys experience when they take compounds that act as progestins (not to be confused with progesterone). Progestins themselves can cause pathalogic tissue changes--this is well documented. But progesterone increases estrogen-receptor sensitivity, so if
you're loaded with estrogens (or have a naturally high level of estrogens), it can really increase estrogen-related symptoms. So is it the progesterone causing the symptoms? NO!!! The progesterone is simply functioning as it should in keeping the body sensitive to the estrogens. The only problem is there is TOO MUCH estrogen. Do you understand what I'm saying?

I seriously want someone to show me where tren compounds either transport fatty acids into cell mitochondria where they are "burned", or accelerate electron transport through the cell membranes and into cell mitochodria without establishing a proton gradient, like dnp. Show me that, and I'll shake your hand and admit I'm wrong.

Joker

[Oxandrin]

tren causes significant increase in prostaglandins..... that could cause fat loss?

[Scottish]

I'm not trying to hijack this thread but we've had a similar problem with Halo. It it is great a increasing strength. Most likely due to it being a strong androgen but people swear that it affects your CNS directly. Now, I have NO idea if that has been proven, it might have but I do know that even if that is true no one has any idea how. So a bunch of people went round and round on this Halo subject with no one really ever coming up with something concrete but everyone swearing that it worked on their CNS. Joker I'm with you on wanting proof, I dig that scientific shit. Sometimes though when there is a lack of science (more often than not) you just have to go with others results.

[Deacon]

some interesting posts above

first of all tren E can be a cutter or bulker depending what it is stacked with.

as far as a fat burner - when I use it I gain lean muscle mass and lose any extra fat I may be carrying - ie love handles.
The last time I used it I gained 20 pounds of lean muscle mass while losing a belt size around my waist. This is not science of course but this is what happens to me with tren E.

I also agree that the original questions asked in this post could have been found by hitting search.

Characteristics:

AAccording to many an opinion this drug delivers the best gains, qualitatively speaking, for money. You notice two names on top of this profile, but unfortunately finaject hasn't been made in quite a while now. Since 1987. This is quite a shame. Both Finaplix and finaject are veterinary steroids and were readily and easily available for democratic prices. Finaject was an injectable and provided you could find a sterile source it was quite convenient. Now only finaplix remains as the original source of trenbolone acetate. The Ttokkyo brand trenbol75 surfaces from time to time as well, but its derived from the same material, though qualitatively not as pure. The problem with finaplix as opposed to finaject is that it comes in veterinary implant pellets, and trust me, you don't want to get one of these babies shot in your butt. So it needs to be converted to either a transdermal (often using DMSO) or an injectable. There are kits to achieve both. Trenbolone nasal sprays are gaining popularity as well.

Trenbolone acetate is rather short-acting but well liked because of its great availability and price. The alternative is the limited availability of Parabolan, a longer-acting trenbolone ester made for human use. Unfortunately certain lots only surface from time to time and they never sell cheap. They do act quite a bit longer. Parabolan (trenbolone as hexahydrobencylcarbonate) has the half-life of an enanthate meaning it requires less frequent injections. One of the major problems with finaplix however is that beginners making sterile injectable compounds isn't a wishful thing, and often leads to abscesses and infections.

The fun with Fina is that it causes small, well-maintainable and quality gains. Naturally it won't give you the sort of mass that testosterone or methandrostenolone would give, but it makes up for it by adding only quality mass (no estrogen formation, so no fat and water retention) which is quite easy to keep on your frame. In contradiction to many aromatizing steroids such as testosterone where a large portion of the gained mass is quickly lost again after discontinuation of the product.

It's also a very versatile product that can be used in a lot of different ways. One could easily stack it with testosterone, anadrol or dianabol for mass gains where the actions of trenbolone cause severe strength gains and add some quality to the mass. Since trenbolone was found to be roughly 3 to 4 times as anabolic as most testosterone esters it quite easily boosts strength over short periods of time. It acts well on the androgen receptor with as a result that it can have certain side-effects. Most notably the normal androgenic side-effects such as increased acne and a risk for prostate hypertrophy, definitely increased aggression leading to roid rage in prolonged use of high doses and in some cases an aggravation of an existing hair loss problem.

On the other hand trenbolone just as easily combines with stanozolol or methenolone for purposes of reducing body-fat. Bill Roberts recently claimed that trenbolone doesn't reduce body-fat and that nothing in the literature proves it does. But I beg to differ. Either Mr.Roberts isn't too bright or he doesn't know how to perform a medline search, since after a mere minute of searching I found a study1 that clearly documented the fat-loss aspects of trenbolone acetate. It clearly concluded (even said so in the abstract) that trenbolone does indeed reduce body-fat (as androgens do, we discuss this in our profile of Masteron), but only when not competing with circulating estrogen. This means as a fat-loss agonist, trenbolone is best used late in a cycle and only combined with non-aromatizing steroids since it competes with circulating estradiol. Body-fat percentage when cutting would drop regardless, simply because of the qualitative lean mass gain made while no extra body-fat is deposited.

And finally in doses of 50-100 mg daily, trenbolone acetate can be used just fine by itself and quite favorably. In fact for people starting out, not too concerned with the side-effects and looking solely for a quality increase in lean muscle, small doses of fina (50mg/day injectable) would be very suitable.

The mechanism by which trenbolone mediates skeletal muscle hypertrophy is diversified and not very well understood. On the one hand trenbolone is a very active agonist of the androgen receptor, as illustrated by its increasing strength and aggression at the level it does. While this is a large contributor there is evidence that it mediates muscle growth by another pathway entirely2,3, namely the increasing of satellite cell sensitivity to an increase in IGF-1 (Insulin-Like growth factor 1) and FGF (Fibroblast growth factor). This would result in a much, much greater nutrient uptake and protein synthesis and explain why trenbolone is so much more potent in building lean muscle than other non-aromatizing, AR-mediated steroids like drostanolone and mesterolone.

In fact, in veterinary cycles the androgenic hypertrophy is regarded as the strongest of any steroid, which is why instead of using aromatizing compounds to enhance mass in cattle, they now inject them with products like Revalor-S, which contains trenbolone and estradiol, to make up for the lack of estrogenic mass accrual.

The points one may wish to consider during use of Fina is the low sterility of some home-brewed concoctions along with the already relatively painful injections (high alcohol content). This can lead to multiple problems when it is injected daily. Lumps due to plentiful same-site injections, abscesses and infections caused by faulty filtering and so on. Trenbolone is not particularly toxic though. Liver values are barely elevated while using it. Though there is no evidence or explanation to support this, some users reported a certain kidney-toxicity. Blood in urine and all that. While this was no doubt the result of a fake (Finaject used to be an often faked steroid shortly after its discontinuation) but I figured I'd mention it. Other than that mild androgenic effects such as acne and an increase in hair loss are noted as well.

For those seeking to use trenbolone there are many online sources on how to make injectable, transdermal and intranasal forms if you can get your hands on fina. Some sites even sell conversion kits that make the whole even easier.

Stacking and Use:

Trenbolone is relatively safe steroid all in all. There is some concern about kidney toxicity, but usually exaggerated. The beauty of trenbolone is that its one steroid that has it all : Its highly effective in its own, provides all lean gains which are fairly easy to maintain and isn't very prone to cause side-effects. Finaplix particularly provides you with a cheap source of trenbolone as well. The problem is making the cartridges into a sterile injectable or transdermal.

A transdermal is made quite easily. Option number one is simply to get your hands on some DMSO, mix up a 50/50 mix of DMSO and water, add in the crushed up fina pellets and apply to the skin. The second is to make an alcohol carrier. You can find the necessary products at any local pharmacy and the more you buy, the cheaper it gets. All of it perfectly legal, easy to obtain since pharmacies are supplied 5 times a day and not too expensive. You need ethanol (as pure as it gets, I use SD40) and Isopropyl Myristate (IPM), a mix of isopropyl alcohol and myristic acid. Mix up 70% ethanol and 30% IPM and dissolve 50 mg per ml trenbolone in your solution. Meaning if you had a solution of half a liter (500 ml) you could add in 25 grams of trenbolone. Again, simply apply and let it dry. These methods will give you roughly 25% absorption of trenbolone.

To get the maximum it is recommended that you inject the stuff of course, but that's slightly more complex as you need to get rid of a lot of the crap they put in these cartridges. You will need sterile oil, solvent (lipophillic), 1 empty sterile container, A syringe filter, two syringes and 2 18gauge needles. Start by putting your pellets in your solvent, and let it sit. You want the pellets to become completely undone and dissolved in your fluid. This is imperative. Shake it up real good and then let it sit for 12-48 hours to let all the crap sink to the bottom. Now take one of your syringes and start transferring the fluid into the sterile oil. You can decant as well, but you really don't want any of the crud on the bottom to make it into this solution, so using the syringe and doing it slowly is the best way. Now take your empty sterile container and use a new syringe to transfer the oil. Attach a syringe filter between syringe and needle and slowly put the oil into your container, slowly filtering it. For everytime you repeat this step you need uncouple the filter/needle from the syringe, or else dirt will gather at the wrong side of the filter and get into your solution. In fact, if your container is a vial its advised that you leave the needle in the vial with the filter on it and you just use the syringe to refill and filter. This solution is now fit to be injected. Its still advised to hold the syringe with the trenbolone under some hot streaming water before injecting first though.

One may also want to note that finaplix has decent oral availability as well. In fact, because of the acetate ester its transdermal availability is less than it would be for a pure steroid, so actually its oral potential is greater than its transdermal potential. When taking oral fina, to account for the difference in availability between this and injectable, one would have to consume 240 mg ( 3 times 4 pellets) every day for 6-8 weeks. But it does work and it saves you the time and cost of making a transdermal.

Nasal sprays and sublingual forms are also popular, and while they too have some minor success, they are the worst way to go. It's a steroid, and with the added ester its even more lipophillic. Since the mucous membranes in the mouth and nose only let hydrophilic substances through, the rate of absorption is extremely limited. Usually to achieve this cyclodextrins are used, sugars that are lipophillic on the inside and can hold a steroid inside, but are hydrophilic on the outside, making the whole absorbable through these channels. But since fina does not have this and most of us do not possess the skills to make cyclodextrin complexes in our own kitchens, this is not a path one should consider.

There is little or no need to stack secondary drugs with fina. It does not aromatize. There is some concern as to fina being progestagenic, so you should you opt to stack it with an aromatizable compound it may worsen potential gynocomastia so adding winstrol or Nolvadex, or even both to such a stack may be wise. But in itself or in a non-aromatizing stack this is not necessary. The use for post-cycle estrogen antagonists is limited as well, so Nolva or clomid to boost natural test will have little use. It is a very strong androgen receptor agonist however, so perhaps using some HCG after a cycle may help you retain more gains and prevent testicular shrinkage, but since HCG does increase estrogen that does reinstate the use of Nolvadex or clomid as well.

[Joker]

Originally Posted by Deacon

some interesting posts above

first of all tren E can be a cutter or bulker depending what it is stacked with.

as far as a fat burner - when I use it I gain lean muscle mass and lose any extra fat I may be carrying - ie love handles.
The last time I used it I gained 20 pounds of lean muscle mass while losing a belt size around my waist. This is not science of course but this is what happens to me with tren E.

I also agree that the original questions asked in this post could have been found by hitting search.

I ABSOLUTELY agree that when using tren (and I have used/am using it myself on a cutting cycle now so I know first hand) you can and should lose bodyfat. And I know I'm going to repeat myself for the fifth or sixth time, so bear with me here....

First, let's examine this statement:

....."Bill Roberts recently claimed that trenbolone doesn't reduce body-fat and that nothing in the literature proves it does. But I beg to differ. Either Mr.Roberts isn't too bright or he doesn't know how to perform a medline search, since after a mere minute of searching I found a study that clearly documented the fat-loss aspects of trenbolone acetate. It clearly concluded (even said so in the abstract) that trenbolone does indeed reduce body-fat (as androgens do, we discuss this in our profile of Masteron), but only when not competing with circulating estrogen. This means as a fat-loss agonist, trenbolone is best used late in a cycle and only combined with non-aromatizing steroids since it competes with circulating estradiol. Body-fat percentage when cutting would drop regardless, simply because of the qualitative lean mass gain made while no extra body-fat is deposited.".....

Now let's look at what Bill Roberts said:

....."There is no evidence in the literature, nor I think practical evidence, that trenbolone acetate has a "special role" in burning fat. Rather, it is an extraordinarily potent AAS, being about three times as effective per milligram as testosterone esters.".....

Bill didn't say that you wouldn't lose fat while using trenbolone acetate (and neither did I!). In fact, a reader can infer he is saying just the opposite. I think that someone as knowledgeable as Bill Roberts knows full well what happens when you raise androgen levels/suppress estrogen levels (and I'll spell it out once again in a minute--that's the part where I repeat myself for the umteenth time). What he did say is that tren has no "special role" in burning fat. EXACTLY. Additionally, he said, as did the first author, that tren is an extraordinarily potent androgen. But if there is some "special" or "inherent" or "intrinsic" or "unique" or whatever term you want to use to show me a mechanism by which tren "BURNS" bodyfat, please let me know. It may seem like a matter of simple semantics to some, but it really isn't that simple. Now here is what happens, once again, when you suppress estrogen levels by using potent androgens like tren:

1. YOU WILL GAIN LEAN BODYMASS
2. YOU WILL NOT GAIN BODYFAT
3. YOU WILL NOT RETAIN SODIUM AND WATER (aldosterone suppression)

THIS EQUATES TO A NET GAIN IN LBM AND A NET LOSS OF BF! The author of the first statement (and Ray Charles, for that matter) can see this is true:

....."Body-fat percentage when cutting would drop regardless, simply because of the qualitative lean mass gain made while no extra body-fat is deposited.".....

Furthermore the suppression of the estrogens, as the author of the first statement clearly points out, is a contingency:

...."only when not competing with circulating estrogen. This means as a fat-loss agonist, trenbolone is best used late in a cycle and only combined with non-aromatizing steroids since it competes with circulating estradiol...."

It has everything to do with suppression of estrogens in the case of using tren for cutting. It's such a potent androgen, it pushes them into the toilet. But as you can see, even as strong as it is, if your estrogen levels were simply too high, you'll be banging your head against the wall when it comes to fat loss. The estrogens are THAT potent. Otherwise, you should be able to take 10,000mg of test per week, be absolutely fucking HUGE, and lean as fuck. Simply not the case. Why? Aromitization.

There are also some who make suppositions based on studies of rats that have shown an upregulation of AR's in adipocytes, inhibition of lipid uptake, and hence significant reduction of sub-q adipose tissue; and interpolate data garnered in said studies (using testosterone) to conclude that trenbolone will exhibit the same effects. WAY too much freedom taken here on more than one level. I don't even want to post shit like that because it's tiresome already.

Anyway, I also agree that the kid could have done a search. And really, the fat "burning" comment is the only thing that tweaked me a little in the wake of the "need to do more reading" suggestion. Maybe I came on a little too strong as well, and I apologize for that. But if you do some reading on lipolysis and lipogenesis, you'll understand what I'm trying to say here. Still an interesting and useful thread. Peace all...

Joker