what to expect after 1st cycle

[markku]

I'm now 5 (of 12)weeks into my 1st cycle (400mg testoviron depot per week and 20 mg dianabol per day). So far I gained 8kg. What do I need to do not to loose what I have gained when of the cycle?

[EPOWER]

Originally Posted by markku

I'm now 5 (of 12)weeks into my 1st cycle (400mg testoviron depot per week and 20 mg dianabol per day). So far I gained 8kg. What do I need to do not to loose what I have gained when of the cycle?

PCT-POST CYCLE THERAPY..BETTER DO SOME RESEARCH FAST AND GET WHAT YOU NEED..YOU SHOULD NOT START A CYCLE WITHOUT HAVING YOU PCT ON HANDAND ALL LINED UP. YOU WILL FIND ALOT OF GOOD INFO ON HERE DO A SEARCH FOR PCT.

E

[Malphas]

How long are you intending to run the Dianabol?

[markku]

Planning to be on Dianabol for the first 5 weeks

[asih.net]

One should consider this question prior to AAS administration. However, almost all AAS users fail to consider this in any meaningful clinical manner. Do not berate yourself for not planning ahead. Also, those on the forum that act as if not planning for AAS cessation is somehow uninformed, etc. are they themselves uninformed. Taking illicit AAS is after all an uninformed decision. Enough.

Maximizing the current gains is important. Diet and dosing are important and read the excellent article by Sheffield-Moore et al. for more information. [Sheffield-Moore M, Urban RJ, Wolf SE, et al. Short-term oxandrolone administration stimulates net muscle protein synthesis in young men. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1999;84:2705-11.]

Regarding the AAS administered. There is not much sense to the dose of testosterone (enanthate) and is a waste of testosterone. This does is to large, will compete with the d'bol unnecessarily, and promote excessive side effects for the benefit/risk ratio. Cut the dose back to 150 mg/week for the same result. If you continue with the 400 mg/week dose, after the last dose it will take weeks for the level to decrease to a point where the HPTA will even begin to be treated. In other words, the testosterone level will be high enough to continue to cause HPTA suppression. This, of course, is at the hypothalamo-pituitary level and secondarily at the testicles. At 150 mg/week the serum testosterone level will be at an acceptable level within 1-2 weeks. Dianabol will be gone within 5 days.

The treatment for AAS cessation is lengthier than I wish to detail. I have written on this topic. Specific questions on meds I will try to get back and answer. As this being the first AAS cycle, odds are the HPTA will return on its own. Overall, plan on an equal amount of time minimum for HPTA normalization as the time taking AAS. This is true for the cycle of the drugs, doses, and duration stated.

[MaxRep]

Originally Posted by asih.net

Regarding the AAS administered. There is not much sense to the dose of testosterone (enanthate) and is a waste of testosterone. This does is to large, will compete with the d'bol unnecessarily, and promote excessive side effects for the benefit/risk ratio. Cut the dose back to 150 mg/week for the same result.

If you continue with the 400 mg/week dose, after the last dose it will take weeks for the level to decrease to a point where the HPTA will even begin to be treated. In other words, the testosterone level will be high enough to continue to cause HPTA suppression. This, of course, is at the hypothalamo-pituitary level and secondarily at the testicles. At 150 mg/week the serum testosterone level will be at an acceptable level within 1-2 weeks. Dianabol will be gone within 5 days.

Hello Michael,
Your expertise and presence here is greatly appreciated.

However, when you make statements like those above in bold, you show why bodybuilders and people with real world experience don't believe what Dr's like yourself have to say about steroid dosages. The reason is real world experience, and I believe published scientific studies as well, clearly show that muscular gains are dose dependent. The concept that 150mg/week of Testosterone will produce the same results as 400mg/week is not borne out in the real world. Just as those of us in the gym everyday know that 800mg/week will produce greater muscle gains than 400mg/week. What you're saying is like saying drinking 1 beer will get a person as inebriated as drinking 6 beers. This is what Dr's tried to say throughout the '70's and '80's and is why Dr's developed the reputation in the athletic world for not knowing anything about the real world application of steroids.

Certainly you're correct in that the higher the dose of Testosterone Enanthate, the longer the suppression of the HPTA after the cycle is stopped. However, given that dosages will be much higher than what you might recommend, the question is, how does one keep the maximum amount of muscular gains achieved during a cycle, upon cessation of that cycle.

Again, thank you for being here and best regards,
MaxRep

[markku]

Thanks to all of you for your input. Ha've read all I found regarding PCT, but I'm still not sure what to do when I'm finished with my cycle in 6 weeks from now. Nolvadex week 1-2, 40g per day and week 3-8, 20g per day? should I stay on the 400mg per week?

[asih.net]

You misunderstood the post. It is clear that the higher cumulative dose of AAS, the greater the effect overall on the muscle. But the question is how do I use AAS in the optimal manner to grow muscle. If one wishes to use all of the AAS possible, go ahead, but at what cost.

The AR will upregualte with increasing AAS doses. After prescribing AAS to more patients than I can recall, a better combination is to use testosterone at a dose to maintain the positive androgenic effects (libido, energy, etc.) while at the same time minimizing the negative androgen effects (fluid retention [estradiol], acne, gynecomastia, etc.). If available, increase the dianabol.

Also, due to the short half life of dianabol it is imprtant to take the drug during the hours of exercising and eating and not when sleeping. There is one good article that studies the kinetics of protein synthesis with oxandrolone synthesis.

So, I am in agreement with the greater total dose of AAS if one wishes to go for it all without regard for risk/benefit. I am in the habit of always considering the risks, benefits, alternatives, and complications of a treatment. Disregarding these, you are correct.

Note: The doses used are not that greater than used in the medical literature, used separately. Studies attempt to isolate the effects to a single factor, therefore, multiple drugs are typically not used. However, a good study by Strawford et al. used oxandrolone 20mg/day with testosterone cypionate 100 mg/week. The testosterone cypionate was used in all of the groups to control for the testosterone level and further isolate the oxandrolone effects. This is one of the rare studies that did this. What is needed are studies along this line with varying AAS drug, dose, and duration.

As far as HPTA suppression. I was not really considering this. Without consideration for AAS cessation, HPTA suppression, than all bets are off. The question on how to best use AAS is really just a crap shoot.

Excuse this last note. When you speak of real world experience, I am assuming it is your belief that I have none or little. Far from it. I have personally treated on a professional medical level many illicit AAS users. On an even more personal level, I competed at the Mr. Texas 1994 and placed second in the Senior division. This physique did not occur overnight but after years of training. It was done as a lark, but I am very glad for the opportunity. So my experience is on many levels.

Originally Posted by MaxRep

Hello Michael,
Your expertise and presence here is greatly appreciated.

However, when you make statements like those above in bold, you show why bodybuilders and people with real world experience don't believe what Dr's like yourself have to say about steroid dosages. The reason is real world experience, and I believe published scientific studies as well, clearly show that muscular gains are dose dependent. The concept that 150mg/week of Testosterone will produce the same results as 400mg/week is not borne out in the real world. Just as those of us in the gym everyday know that 800mg/week will produce greater muscle gains than 400mg/week. What you're saying is like saying drinking 1 beer will get a person as inebriated as drinking 6 beers. This is what Dr's tried to say throughout the '70's and '80's and is why Dr's developed the reputation in the athletic world for not knowing anything about the real world application of steroids.

Certainly you're correct in that the higher the dose of Testosterone Enanthate, the longer the suppression of the HPTA after the cycle is stopped. However, given that dosages will be much higher than what you might recommend, the question is, how does one keep the maximum amount of muscular gains achieved during a cycle, upon cessation of that cycle.

Again, thank you for being here and best regards,
MaxRep

[hackskii]

Well, I can say for first hand even 400mg of test cyp or enanthate gives me some pretty high blood pressure.
Gains were good but when I started monitoring my BP I did get a bit worried.
I know alot of guys that do huge amounts of gear and do have problems.

[MaxRep]

Originally Posted by asih.net

You misunderstood the post.

Well, it wouldn't be the first time.

Excuse this last note. When you speak of real world experience, I am assuming it is your belief that I have none or little. Far from it. I have personally treated on a professional medical level many illicit AAS users.

On an even more personal level, I competed at the Mr. Texas 1994 and placed second in the Senior division. This physique did not occur overnight but after years of training. It was done as a lark, but I am very glad for the opportunity. So my experience is on many levels.

I stand corrected! Thank you for relaying that as I, and probably most folks, had no idea that you personally had trained to the point of competing.

I'm wondering if you know the name; Dr. Jekot? I was a patient of his through the late 80's. He was a good guy here in SoCal who basically took in BB'ers like myself and prescribed moderate anabolic cycles while checking us every few weeks for blood pressure, etc.

Once he was made an example of, presumably to scare off other Dr's from doing the same thing, nobody stopped using anabolics but now everybody was using them without any medical supervision. Hardly makes any sense. While the details differ, the concept may be similar to your situation.

Best to you,
MaxRep