Can you build a tolerance to test?

[devldawg]

Ok I'm on my 4th cycle using test and the gains are not like they used to be. My test is from a very legit source, but it feels like it is underdosed, because usually I hold alot of water really quickly. All my other cycles I used 500mg of test, but I've went up to 750mg on this cycle. I don't feel the same as I did on the 500mg. Does your body build up that much of a tolerance to test, or should I kick it up to 1gram a week? I'm on my 5th week and I'm up maybe 8-10lbs, but all my others cycles, I was up 10lbs in a shorter period of time. Is there anything I can do or is it just the way it is going to be here on out?

[spound]

bump

[VDC]

You're either approaching your genetic limit for muscle mass or have surpassed it,,,Now the battle of gaining gets tough,,,More protein, more aas, etc,,,Water retention is from the estrogen compounds aromatised from Test,,,so consider yourself blessed that its not happening,,,That's another reason the gains are slow,,,If you're used to adding in the poundage from water retention that will be lacking now,,,VDC

[dzl66]

Originally Posted by devldawg

Ok I'm on my 4th cycle using test and the gains are not like they used to be. My test is from a very legit source, but it feels like it is underdosed, because usually I hold alot of water really quickly. All my other cycles I used 500mg of test, but I've went up to 750mg on this cycle. I don't feel the same as I did on the 500mg. Does your body build up that much of a tolerance to test, or should I kick it up to 1gram a week? I'm on my 5th week and I'm up maybe 8-10lbs, but all my others cycles, I was up 10lbs in a shorter period of time. Is there anything I can do or is it just the way it is going to be here on out?

Well there could be alot of factors at work here. Your diet for instance and the brands of test you have used in the past and what you are useing now and what are u stacking it with ~~then and now. Also anti-estrogens have an effect on bloat.

[Patuba]

I asked Anabolics 2002 and 2004 author William Llewellyn a similar question. My question was pretty much "why do you have to increase dosage with androgens every cycle and why don't you get the same gains the more cycles you do". Here was his response:

"I think the diminishing returns fact has more to do with losing a positive
protein balance as the muscle cells get bigger and bigger.. Androgens
actually increase their own receptor concentrations; very different from
what we see with most other drugs.. Other factors, like increased protein
degredation, and in inability to shuttle higher and higher amouts of
nutrients to the cells, probably play a more important role here.

What you see is a dramtic increase in androgen receptor levels when one goes on a cycle. A little counter-intuitative at first, but a well documented fact.."

[Neodavid]

He said: Androgens actually increase their own receptor concentrations; very different from what we see with most other drugs

That's a little confusing, since every drug I'm aware of, causes an increase in receptors. From Nicotine to Heroine, the body responds to it's receptors being 'filled' by adapting to a new env where it can achieve homeostasis.

Maybe I'm missing something?

Originally Posted by Patuba

I asked Anabolics 2002 and 2004 author William Llewellyn a similar question. My question was pretty much "why do you have to increase dosage with androgens every cycle and why don't you get the same gains the more cycles you do". Here was his response:

"I think the diminishing returns fact has more to do with losing a positive
protein balance as the muscle cells get bigger and bigger.. Androgens
actually increase their own receptor concentrations; very different from
what we see with most other drugs.. Other factors, like increased protein
degredation, and in inability to shuttle higher and higher amouts of
nutrients to the cells, probably play a more important role here.

What you see is a dramtic increase in androgen receptor levels when one goes on a cycle. A little counter-intuitative at first, but a well documented fact.."

[Patuba]

Sorry I can't add more. I quoted his entire response to my e-mail.

[scott weiland]

Originally Posted by Patuba

Sorry I can't add more. I quoted his entire response to my e-mail.

Bro,
I'm just like you. I'm 6'2", 30 yrs. old. I started at 168 lbs. I'm at 210 lbs now. I VERY happy with gains but its hard as hell now. I agree with the other post, we're at our genetic max. Later Bro, WEILAND

[einstein1905]

Originally Posted by Neodavid

He said: Androgens actually increase their own receptor concentrations; very different from what we see with most other drugs

That's a little confusing, since every drug I'm aware of, causes an increase in receptors. From Nicotine to Heroine, the body responds to it's receptors being 'filled' by adapting to a new env where it can achieve homeostasis.

Maybe I'm missing something?

You're exactly right. As counterintuitive as it may be, it's the norm. The rest of his answer is pretty solid though, which is a welcome change

[Iron Jay]

Originally Posted by scott weiland

Bro,
I'm just like you. I'm 6'2", 30 yrs. old. I started at 168 lbs. I'm at 210 lbs now. I VERY happy with gains but its hard as hell now. I agree with the other post, we're at our genetic max. Later Bro, WEILAND

6'2 and 210 there is no way you are past your genetic max...YOu can hold at least 230 at 6'2 before I would even think of saying something like that...

[Neodavid]

Then the final question is, WHAT can be done as pct for excess receptors, which will NOT get filled in by normal test levels, causing by nature a decline in protien synthesis, aka, losing mass.

We can bring the boys up to speed, put our pituitary back on track, but no one has ever addressed this left over problem. THIS is the reason you lose after a cycle...

I'm thinking... coming off test a little slower, going down to say 250 for a few weeks as part of a long lasting pct, and even maybe 150, or just above normal levels.

Originally Posted by einstein1905

You're exactly right. As counterintuitive as it may be, it's the norm. The rest of his answer is pretty solid though, which is a welcome change

[Patuba]

I've always wondered what happend PCT. I mean lets say you now have more adrogen receptors after a cycle. Your Test levels return to normal but do you continue to have more androgen receptors like during the cycle or do they return to normal after a time?

If you continue to have a high number of receptors then wouldn't your normal Test levels be insufficent since you have more receptors?

[einstein1905]

Originally Posted by Patuba

I've always wondered what happend PCT. I mean lets say you now have more adrogen receptors after a cycle. Your Test levels return to normal but do you continue to have more androgen receptors like during the cycle or do they return to normal after a time?

If you continue to have a high number of receptors then wouldn't your normal Test levels be insufficent since you have more receptors?

Many people believe that ARs don't downregulate over time in response to supraphysiological doses of AR ligands (AAS). However, it has been shown in vitro (but not yet in vivo) that receptor downregulation does occur over time....just like every other receptor/ligand system. The one thing that is indebatable is that ARs do downregulate when the concentration of their ligands are reduced, so "excess" ARs are not an issue...the body is very efficient and conserves energy wherever possible.

[Patuba]

Thanks for the great info.

Has anyone told you that "You're the man" lately?

Originally Posted by einstein1905

Many people believe that ARs don't downregulate over time in response to supraphysiological doses of AR ligands (AAS). However, it has been shown in vitro (but not yet in vivo) that receptor downregulation does occur over time....just like every other receptor/ligand system. The one thing that is indebatable is that ARs do downregulate when the concentration of their ligands are reduced, so "excess" ARs are not an issue...the body is very efficient and conserves energy wherever possible.

[eleven11]

Alot of good info comes from Einstein. BTW where the hell do you learn all this stuff.........11