Anyone got the Russian Kettlebell E-book?

[Pup'nIrn]

Which one is good enough to buy? Pup

[Freddy]

Why do you wanna use kettleballs?

With the money you spend on that you could be buying real free weights, like an olympic bar, a power rack, etc. Those will serve most people's long term goals...unless you're going to enter some back woods Russian kettleball competition...

[Bob Smith]

Quit reading T-mag and their bullshit articles on "new and improved" equipment from 80 years ago.

[Pup'nIrn]

Originally Posted by Bob Smith

Quit reading T-mag and their bullshit articles on "new and improved" equipment from 80 years ago.

I am not reading and believing anything on the net BOB!! The fact is, I am interested in early training techniques of strongmen because of my career in sports medicine and the rehabilatation of elite athletes. I have made my own kettlebell, I personally designed, that cost me about $16 in materials plus a little welding and can handle 150lbs+ of interchangable free weight so it cost effective.

I am simply looking for the best and most discriptive of e-books for the famous exercises because they do have merit to someone focusing on prevention of injuries through core and dynamic stabilization of limbs. please don't assume. Pup

[Pup'nIrn]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Why do you wanna use kettleballs?

With the money you spend on that you could be buying real free weights, like an olympic bar, a power rack, etc. Those will serve most people's long term goals...unless you're going to enter some back woods Russian kettleball competition...

Oh and Freddy there is more to life than squats and cleans for my players. We have plenty to work with equiptment wise....but If I am ever satisfied that I have done and learned all I can about sports med and rehab......then I might as well retire. There are many great points already emphasized in rehab that Kettlebells have been using for years before us. Sometimes its best to look beyond you own biases and learn. Pup

[Freddy]

Well I'm priveledged enough to get a chance to talk with literally some of the best coaches in the nation, maybe the world, on a weekly basis. None use kettleballs. When asked why they don't use kettleballs, they'd most likely reply "because our athletes want to win."

Now, I'm not sure what exactly it is you do for your clients, nor am I exactly sure who your clients are or what they need. There are certainly some situations that require kettleball training.

The point is, I haven't heard of any.

Please, I'm really curious as to what facet of strength training I've been neglecting.

I mean, what exactly are you looking for? Speed? There are more effective methods. Flexibility? More effective methods. Power? Injury prevention? etc, etc, etc.

You've indicated you don't know how to train with kettleballs. Since you don't know how to go about getting the desired effect, do you know what you'll be using them for?

I know I'm coming off like a dick, but honestly I'm not trying to be antagonistic here. What could you be using kettleballs for besides preparation for a contest requiring the demonstration of kettleball skill?

Originally Posted by Pup'nIrn

Oh and Freddy there is more to life than squats and cleans for my players. We have plenty to work with equiptment wise....but If I am ever satisfied that I have done and learned all I can about sports med and rehab......then I might as well retire. There are many great points already emphasized in rehab that Kettlebells have been using for years before us. Sometimes its best to look beyond you own biases and learn. Pup

[Freddy]

In addition to my last post I should mention that if I seem worked up, which I'm really not, its not directed at you so much as the kettleball fad itself and those who've abused it.

I get upset when I see it marketed at impressionable beginners by "coaches" who only seem to be interested in making a quick and dishonest buck.

You clearly work hard for your clients, as evidenced by the amount of work you have put into this, and I truly respect the hell out of that.

My previous post still stands, just note that I'm not attacking you.

[Ramstein II]

Ok, I'm at the bookstore the other day and come accross the fitness books. So I take a look. There's this new book about kettlebell training and how great it is yada yada yada. Then, come to find out this is some new fitness fad--you know, a trend in all. I can't believe it. So I'm thinking "ok, I've got an open mind and all, let's take a look at this stuff." Wow man, I'm like, "that looks really dangerous." People are doing stuff like bending over with one arm in the air suspended with a heavy kettlebell. I'm like, "that can't be good for the spine," know what I mean? Then, the other day I'm at the gym. Check this out, some freakin guy in spandex is balancing on one leg on some off balance rubber thingy and doing these one legged squats--all wobbly and everything. That guys lucky he didn't twist an ankle or knee or pull somethin.

(How do you like the new speech pattern? This is merely to demonstrate that even a meathead knows a thing or two about things, you know?)

[Pup'nIrn]

Originally Posted by Ramstein II

Ok, I'm at the bookstore the other day and come accross the fitness books. So I take a look. There's this new book about kettlebell training and how great it is yada yada yada. Then, come to find out this is some new fitness fad--you know, a trend in all. I can't believe it. So I'm thinking "ok, I've got an open mind and all, let's take a look at this stuff." Wow man, I'm like, "that looks really dangerous." People are doing stuff like bending over with one arm in the air suspended with a heavy kettlebell. I'm like, "that can't be good for the spine," know what I mean? Then, the other day I'm at the gym. Check this out, some freakin guy in spandex is balancing on one leg on some off balance rubber thingy and doing these one legged squats--all wobbly and everything. That guys lucky he didn't twist an ankle or knee or pull somethin.

(How do you like the new speech pattern? This is merely to demonstrate that even a meathead knows a thing or two about things, you know?)

Okay, Ram the fact is, I am lets say....in the field of sports medicine. I have over 175 athletes under my direction and we already use bigger faster stronger ( which were considered diffeent and controversial at one time) methods which are widely popular in sport training. I am looking into kettlebell type exercises for unilateral stabilization and core stabiliation which if you were eduacated in Physical Therapy, you'd understand its implications of injury prevention. The fact is most movements in kettlebell and strongman lifts are unconventional and not appropriate for everyone but some are. I said I was interested in these different lifts.....NOT UNEDUCATED ON THE BIOMECHANICS OF THEM AND THEIR APLLICATION TO SPORT!!!!

The fact is, most strength movements we now use with athletics are bi-lateral bar movements and this is where uni-lateral movements are superior.....it requires more muscle/joint stabilization strength. Yes you can use dumbbells for most of these movements..... I have been doing DB clean/Jerk and Db swings with a single dumbbell for a number of months now and made excellent gains in my power cleans....now using 150lbs dumbbell for 5x5 single arm. The explosive movement in a clean is excellent for athletes and requires strong abdominals and obliques to perform undercontrol.

In fact, the turkish get up is being used at the University of Tenn with their athletes at present. Yes they use a barbell but its a strongman movement...... In fact at the conference I attended 1 1/2 years ago a 135lb female used 145lbs olympic bar to show use the movement. The reason this was being taught was because they had a dramatic drop in shoulder injuries after training this movement.

I don't care about the Kettlebell at all.....I care about learning new/old movements that once made the strongmen of past and have been lost to nautilus machines and stairmasters. These movements can and are a catalyst for new thought and although you might modifiy the movement some to be more sport specific....they can be extremely useful. Just think of what you see the human body do in the sport of football. The twisting and torque the body has to be strong enough for is amazing. These training movements might be awkward but they are controlled...unlike on the field we are preparing them for.

"Check this out, some freakin guy in spandex is balancing on one leg on some off balance rubber thingy and doing these one legged squats--all wobbly and everything. That guys lucky he didn't twist an ankle or knee or pull somethin."

***This is what I mean....you don't know what your talking about. We have been using Plyoballs in Therapy for years because it makes a workout surface unstable therefore you have to form stability. Would I put my athlete in that position NO NO NO!!!! But he is showing the extreme possiblities of a strength and balance combo.....like when Walter Payton took ballet to become almost graceful on the football field. Goto school. Pup

[Ramstein II]

Here's something a strong man of old did. Ok, take a baby cow, you know--a calf. Lift it everyday. Feed it, take care of it. As it grows, you get stronger and bigger. Eventually, you'll be carrying around this really heavy cow. Imagine how strong you'll be!

Hey, I appreciate and respect what you do. I also appreciate you coming to this board for information and contacts as this board is not your typical bodybuilding board. The credentials on this board are amazing. Like many on this board, including you I’m sure, I’ve read a thing or too also, including many a peer reviewed journal like you therapist-types. I’ve also read Hackenschmidt’s works and several other writings by old strong men, so I know where you’re coming from. I admire those guys too and what they did in their time without drugs. I also believe that technology cannot mimic or match natural weight lifting. This has been the fundamental capitalist’s dilemma in resistence training over the last 30 years. There’s not much money in barbells, plates, and dumbells. So, fads come along to try and outdo the old barbell and dumbell. (Don’t get me wrong, I like some machines for many things–especially for working around injuries which is really their strongest point).

Now as far as therapy is concerned, I can see how some balance training to retrain unused muscles and nerves is a good thing. But, it needs to be SAFE. What is going on nowadays is just plain stupid.

In the last 30 years many fads in exercise and in particular resistence training have come and gone and people cash in on whatever the current fad is. At one time ultra stabilization and isolation was all the rage. Now, the big thing is “core training.” Everybody’s training their “core.” To do this you engage in unstable exercises ranging from single arm dumbell cleans to working with balls and balance boards. The kettlebell is even raising its ugly head. Every exercise you do is a compromise of stability and intensity. The more stability, the more intensity, but the less activation of muscle fibers to accomplish the lift. Then on the other end of the spectrum are your stability exercises that are so unstable that the load is very small. So, you may be engaging more fibers, but they are not receiving much overload. Freeweights and a few very good machines, such as leg presses and cables, are a good compromise of stability and intensity. The stabilizers get plenty of work with stable freeweight movements. Don’t you think the “core” works pretty hard during ab work, and all other freeweight movements? To get better at a sport activity and the balance required to perform it, I highly recommend engaging in the sport activity and then lifting STABLE and SAFE weights to get stronger like people who knew what they hell they were doing did. People like Bill Starr. See Generally 5x5. See also, SAID Principle.

Just wait, people are going to seriously hurt themselves doing this “core training” balance work. They will fall victim to the latest fitness trend. I see people balancing dumbells on their shoulders, doing dumbell clean and presses, balance board work. You think that affords much overload? And to work these mystical “stabilizers” in the mystical “core” (where I suspect you’ll find things like your “chi” or maybe even a “chakra” if you’re lucky) you have to expose yourself to injury from losing your balance and busting something. Not to mention the WASTE OF TIME of doing that crap. Let’s put things into perspective. Is it a good idea for me to do military presses with a soup can while standing on a kid’s partially inflated float--on one leg? Then why should I screw around that way in the gym? THe cost benefit analysis favors a NO to that question. The risk of injury far exceeds the benefit of working the "stabilizers." Just wait for one of thes out of shape people or even injured in-shape people to pull something way out of wack slinging dumbells or even kettlebells over their head on all kinds of weird contorted forms.

In a similar vein: Also, now everybody is combining yoga with everything they do. I see yoga looking stuff being done while lifting weights for crying out load. Now I don’t have anything against yoga. I call yoga something else. I call it “stretching.” Not really a spiritual experience to stretch, but hey whatever. Just don’t combine it with weights. Its real simple. Lift progressively heavier weights in a SAFE and controlled manner. Engage in sport specific training to get better at your sport. Do SAFE therapy to rehab. Don’t waste your time on fads that can injure you.

Ok, that's all. This thread is overdone.

[Grizzly]

It may be overdone, but you were certainly funny, and quite poignant, in the overdoing. Nice post.

[Bob Smith]

Originally Posted by Ramstein II

You think that affords much overload? And to work these mystical “stabilizers” in the mystical “core” (where I suspect you’ll find things like your “chi” or maybe even a “chakra” if you’re lucky)

bwahahaha! Thats hilarious!

Im with Freddy on this, if pro and olympic level strength coaches (our own JohnSmith is one of them) dont waste their time with kettleballs (and similar fads), then the rest of us certainly dont need to either.

[J DUB]

There is certainly validity in improving core stability and proprioception in athletes, but I am afraid that many of the new age PT's and strength coaches are going overboard on the importance of activating the TA and all that. As some have said, you cannot tell me that a guy who can do a decent snatch doesn't have any core stability. It seems that coaches and PT's have become bored over the years with the traditional exercises, and thus are always trying to reinvent the wheel a la Verstegen.

Also, with regards to the exercise where the person was doing one legged squats on the pad, it was probably a dynadisc or an airex pad, which is good for ankle stability/rehab and sometimes knee rehab, but is pretty much useless for strength purposes. The problem with the trend of using these unstable surfaces for exercises (such as physioballs for db bench, etc.) is that force production is greatly comprimised. To be successful in most sports, it is vital to be able to be able to produce a large amount of force in a small amount of time, and stability training does nothing to this effect.

Considering that coaches only have an hour or so with athletes, time spent on stability and proprioception is IMO time wasted that could have been spent on doing things to improve performance, such as the oly & power lifts. The only time I see stability and proprioception as being appropriate is when an athlete is rehabbing, such as a player coming back from a bad ankle sprain should do some ankle stability work and a player just getting out of a cast needs to work on his proprioception and stability.

[OLD LIFTER]

I like limiting my views to if so and so doesnt do it then it must be worthless... they must be on top of the entire game...yep closeing doors and refusing to look at options is what made the world a better place.. fads are one thing but just outright degrading of an option because someone you respect hasn't used it to your knowledge weel I like that attitude Kudos to you

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by OLD LIFTER

I like limiting my views to if so and so doesnt do it then it must be worthless... they must be on top of the entire game...yep closeing doors and refusing to look at options is what made the world a better place.. fads are one thing but just outright degrading of an option because someone you respect hasn't used it to your knowledge weel I like that attitude Kudos to you

Huh? The best coaches HAVE used kettleballs...then quickly discarded them when they proved ridiculously over-rated.

This conversation gets even more tiresome.

Talk to Rippletoe. Louie Simmons. Dragomir. Pendlay. Tate. The list goes on and on. The coaches that produce world class athletes have toyed with kettleballs, found them over-rated, and returned to the methods that work better.

Oh, but thats right. Silly, uneducated, close-minded Freddy. Kettleballs produce FUNCTIONAL strength! Duh!

Thats right, how could I forget. Dimas, Hussein, Tavakoli, Hammon, Garry Frank, Kazmier...these guys don't have ANY functional strength. In fact I think the 45 year old soccer-moms pictured doing the kettle-lifts are capable of much more impressive feats of strength.

Train with kettleballs if you want to enter a kettleball competition. Otherwise stick with what works better. I can't believe this conversation continues. Hahahaha.