(Best of Meso) SoreNess - DOMS [DeadGuy]

[Phreezer]

Date: 02/06/03 10:23 AM
Author: deadguy
Subject: ..

First..what does DOMS stand for?
I've seen you guys (Hogg, AM, Freddy)mention that no soreness doesn't
mean you aren't progressing..and I agree with that. However, I am sore
the day after every single workout. NO matter what muscle group it is.
My intensity in the gym is highly elevated, and i do not overtrain. I
make it a point not to. Glutamine helps with the soreness when taken
during cutting cycles, 20g/ed. The soreness usually lasts for 2-3
days..sometimes 4. I want to be sure of recovery before working each
group again; therefor, i train each group once a week. Is this type of
soreness unusual?
(http://www.mesomorphosis.com/forums/...sage_ID=191157)








Date: 02/06/03 10:54 AM
Author: Oldtimer
Subject: RE: ..

DG, I used to feel sore for about 3-4 days as you said, and it always
bothered me. One thing i know for sure, is that it has nothing to do
with progress (i actually did lots of measurements through the years,
so i'm certain).
I tried large dosages of Vit C & E, tried cooling down for a few mins
on the treadmill, tried glutamine, it all helped a bit, but nothing
consistent, soreness comes and goes depending on the intensity, and
the type of workout (compound kills me).
The only way i was able to rid myself of it, is through the use of HIT
and its ken.
Since i started HST, i rarely feel sore, and i feel it only for a few
hours after i wake up sometimes etc., and you know what, my progress
has never been this good.. never.
I've heard sooooooooo many theories about it, but i've never heard a
good explanation of it, and a scientific, yet proven, way to avoid it.

Hope this helps, OT
(http://www.mesomorphosis.com/forums/...sage_ID=191162)









Date: 02/06/03 11:47 AM
Author: Hogg
Subject: RE: ..

a 10-15 minute cardio blast post workout can reduced delayed onset
muscle soreness. Some do the cold/hot shower and claim that it works.
Adequate protein intake is a prerequisite regardless of the presence
of DOMS.
What exactly DOMS is - whether degraded proteins and other waste
byproducts or just plain old microtrauma has been and will continue to
be debated for quite some time. I'm in the microtrauma camp myself.
One thing is certain, that old "no pain no gain, you should not miss a
workout even if you are sore" gym-lore recommendation is
bullshit....when a muscle is sore, it is definitely not recovered and
you are succeptible to injury, especially when talking about the pecs,
biceps, and hamstring.
(http://www.mesomorphosis.com/forums/...sage_ID=191196)









Date: 02/06/03 01:05 PM
Edited: 02/06/03 01:08 PM
Author: Freddy
Subject: RE: RE: ..

I have to disagree about not training when sore, as this is a
contradiction of dual factor theory. Whenever I try a radically
different program (switching from 5x5 to HST to WSB), I am usually
sore initially. I train though it, my body adjusts, and I am not
sore for the remainder of the training cycle.
This occurance is not limited to just me, this is common of most Oly
lifters, and many powerlifters, especially guys in the WSB camp, but
also old school guys who train more like Coan or Gary.
Also, training while sore will not lead to muscle tears, if it did,
every strength athlete would have torn most muscles from their traps
down to their calves. Training while injuried is a completely
different story, but I know that you know the difference between
micro and macrotrauma, Hogg.
One last personal observation: If I go into the gym sore from last
workout, and train the sore muscle group (as required by the
routine), I don't feel sore anymore when done. For an example: I'm
doing JS's old school PLing program right now for squats and deads
(my bench training is a hybrid of WSB and Paul Anderson's bench
program). I train heavy squats and light deads on Sunday, and the
first time I did this I was sore. When Weds rolled around, it was
time to do heavy deads and light squats, and I was still a little
sore at first. By the end of the workout, however, I felt fine.
These are some of the reasons why I train while sore.
(http://www.mesomorphosis.com/forums/...sage_ID=191265)

[Phreezer]

Date: 02/06/03 01:26 PM
Author: Hogg
Subject: RE: RE: ..

Freddy,
At what point can you characterize soreness as being simply
microtrauma within the muscle vs microtrauma at the
musculotendinosus junction? Does microtrauma not lead to
macrotrauma if the training effort is continuous and the
microtrauma itself is not addressed? Dual factor theory deals with
the optimum point in time at which to train a muscle, training a
muscle prior to the point at which it has recovered sufficiently
often leads to degradation of the muscle itself - microtrauma thus
leading to macrotrauma.
We could go on about this later tonight if it is time to break out
the textbooks and cite ACSM references but I think perhaps it is
an issue of defining soreness and training effort. If your quads
are still sore, are you going to ramp your training poundages up
past 80% 1RM? Many on this board commonly do the same routine week
after week, session after session, increasing the weight,
decreasing the reps, using momentum to complete a lift rather than
calling it quits when the muscle is no longer able to drive the
load.....and training in this manner can have severe consequences,
perhaps not if you are mildly sore....still feeling a little
tenderness when you stretch out a muscle, but chronically
sore....when your glutes hurt sooo bad that you have trouble
getting out of your chair or when your arms hurt so bad that you
wince in pain when you pick up a coffee pot.....obviously degree
of soreness is something that needs to be defined.
Mind you, I cited training methods that (seem to be) commonly
employed on this board, not everyone follows such practices, but
those that do are at risk of injury...if in fact the muscle has
not recovered sufficiently prior to the next training effort.
Also, consistently training with microtrauma begets macrotrauma
providing that the intensity remains constant - simply put, if you
never allow recovery to occur, something is going to break.
(http://www.mesomorphosis.com/forums/...sage_ID=191276)









Date: 02/06/03 01:29 PM
Author: Hogg
Subject: RE: RE: ..

And I needed to address my first paragraph a little bit better,
in certain muscles, the junction can become a very vulnerable
point that will yeild unexpectedly under even modest training
loads when microtrauma exists.
Also, one thing to note, age is a factor. The ACSM notes that
the majority of ruptures occur in athletes in their 3rd and 4th
decade of life....so perhaps the younger guys can train like
animals and disregard bio-feedback. Obviously, a 14 year old
heals from a broken arm much faster than a 30 year old so there
is much to be said for age in this equation as well.
(http://www.mesomorphosis.com/forums/...sage_ID=191279)









Date: 02/06/03 02:41 PM
Edited: 02/06/03 02:47 PM
Author: Freddy
Subject: RE: RE: ..

Dual factor training treats fitness (preparation) and fatique
as two independant variables, which are not mutually exclusive
(one can and may exist with the other). By not training when
you are sore, you can (and may) decrease your preparation.
Microtrauma CAN lead to macrotrauma. But it does not mean it
will. Like I said before, if there was a cause and effect
relationship, all strength athletes would be in pretty rough
shape. Injuries are almost always the result of multiple
hidden problems, that microtrauma may (may being the key word)
accentuate.
Let me give you an example. Bench pressing leads to
microtrauma, but bench pressing does not have a cause and
effect relationship with injuries. However, if one has a
strength imbalance between the pressing muscles and the
external rotation muscles, the microtrauma experienced from
benching could turn this imbalance into an injury. Clearly,
neither the bench pressing nor the microtrauma that resulted
from bench pressing caused the injury. What they did do,
however, was accentuate the already pre-existing strength
imbalance...resulting in an injury.
As for the guys who train without periodizing their workouts
correctly, that is a completely different matter altogether.
What I said already holds true, regardless how one chooses to
workout. It goes without saying that someone who periodizes
their training correctly and listens to their body has a much
better chance at avoiding injury than someone who does
neither. But, that is a different topic altogether, and I
don't want to go off on a tangent.
Us young bucks do have leeway with what some would consider
"reckless" training, that is true, but what we are talking
about is not reckless. Louie Simmons is 53 years old, and
trains harder than I do by a long shot. He still totals elite
to this day with a 900-1000 pound squat. If you want to talk
about training while sore, talk to Louie! He will make you
HURT.
(http://www.mesomorphosis.com/forums/...sage_ID=191330)

[Phreezer]

Date: 02/06/03 04:08 PM
Author: Hogg
Subject: RE: RE: ..

"Let me give you an example. Bench pressing leads to
microtrauma, but bench pressing does not have a cause and
effect relationship with injuries. However, if one has a
strength imbalance between the pressing muscles and the
external rotation muscles, the microtrauma experienced from
benching could turn this imbalance into an injury. Clearly,
neither the bench pressing nor the microtrauma that resulted
from bench pressing caused the injury. What they did do,
however, was accentuate the already pre-existing strength
imbalance...resulting in an injury. "
Ummm, okay, of the 50 or so cases of pectoralis ruptures per
year reported to the American College of Sports Medicine,
the majority occur while the athlete is bench
pressing...flat bench pressing....and it is the result of
the pectoralis being stretched at the bottom of the lift to
its elastic limit and it thus yeilds. The lift itself
requires that the lifter place his body in a position which
is vulnerable when the pectoralis is loaded at the extreme
bottom in (what is) a very weak position. Are you saying
that the issue of stretching the pec to its elastic limit is
a result of having underdeveloped deltoids? It seems to me
that there exists a cause and effect relationship between
bench pressing and pectoralis injuries....or did Dave Tate
have underdeveloped deltoids?
Everyone on this board has a voice. If you want to tell
people that it is perfectly legitimate to train when sore
and that all of the world-class olympic and power lifters do
so, then hey, by all means, that is your choice. I see
things from a slightly different perspective and that is the
perspective of not having to make a living off of my
body.....frankly, I am a bit gun shy having been cut open
last year and I do not intend to allow that to happen
again.....and strangely enough, it happened when I trained
while still sore....with less than 80% of my 1RM.
(http://www.mesomorphosis.com/forums/...sage_ID=191379)









Date: 02/06/03 05:29 PM
Edited: 02/06/03 05:31 PM
Author: Freddy
Subject: RE: RE: ..

No, you misunderstood the example. Both the shoulders and
the pecs are overly developed in the pressing motion. The
rotator cuff tears and pec tears that result can be
attributed to a strength imbalance to the motion of
external rotation.
"External rotation" is the process of "pivoting" the upper
arm inside the shoulder socket. It is a neural problem,
and the fault has nothing to do with under developed pecs
or shoulders.
Movements that train the 'external rotation' of the arm:
Cuban rotations, upright rows, power cleans (and other
variations of cleans) etc.
Let me furthor develop my prior example of the bench
press.
First off, the person in this example has hugely developed
pecs, shoulders, and tris (both neurally and at the cell
level). The pressing motion is overly developed (bench
pressing, military pressing, dips etc), and the external
rotation motion has become underdeveloped. This motion
counter balances the pressing motion. As one becomes
overly dominant, uneven stress is put on the tendons, and
even the ligiments (muscles pulling on bone, which causes
bones to pull on bones).
Now, if this is the root of your problem, than clearly
microtrauma has nothing to do with it. Imagine that it
takes you anywhere between 1 day through 2 weeks to not
feel sore. After 2 weeks, you train bench press again.
Soreness is gone completely, yet your strength imbalance
between the two motions (pressing versus rotation) still
exist. BAM. Our athlete tears something in the shoulder
region (rotator cuff, pec, shoulder, something).
The problem wasn't soreness, it was the pre-existing
strength imbalance.
Microtrauma only EXPOSED this problem, it did not create
it.
Also, Dave Tate attributes a lot of his initial problems
with his chest/shoulder region to this very strength
imbalance, and its why so many WSB guys do cuban rotations
1-3 times a week!
(http://www.mesomorphosis.com/forums/...sage_ID=191447)









Date: 02/06/03 05:46 PM
Author: Hogg
Subject: RE: RE: ..

Ok, now I see what you are talking about.
Now, WRT the soreness issue, AM kinda explained what I
was saying but there is also a difference between
feeling totally blasted (for example, when you change to
new movements and train heavy) vs. feeling a little
'crisp' a couple days after training. Case in point,
hamstrings - I have trained hamstrings on days when I
felt a little tight and 'crisp' because it was the day
to train but....there have been days - specifically when
I started doing stiff-legged deadlifts instead of ham
curls - where it hurt like hell and I had no strength in
my hams when I tried to do leg curls in my second
session of the week - again, it was my scheduled day to
train them but training was impossible and futile given
the level of soreness experienced. I definitely avoid
training sore in the scenario that I just described
however I am not about to skip a session because of
feeling a little soreness/tightness that will go away
after a warmup.
I guess, in short, sometimes I fail to go into a verbose
mode when I make a comment and I usually end up having
to be verbose to fully explain my point...much as I
questioned your rotation term.
One other thing along the same lines of imbalance as you
had mentioned, JS mentioned a strength imbalance
relationship between chest and back, where the athlete
might be a bench press fanatic but less motivated to do
barbell rows. This is a little bit different than the
scenario that you discussed but similar in that an
undeveloped opposing muscle group can leave the athlete
unable to perform at optimum level or subject to injury
as well.
(http://www.mesomorphosis.com/forums/...sage_ID=191455)

[Phreezer]

Date: 02/06/03 06:00 PM
Edited: 02/06/03 06:01 PM
Author: Freddy
Subject: RE: RE: ..

Yes, the degree of soreness does make a difference on
training. I agree, if one can barely walk, than
training would probably be out of the question!
Also, the bench/row relationship that you mentioned is
another example of what we are talking about. This is
why most (not all) of the elite Powerlifters train
bench and back in the same plane of movement
(horizontal). In addition to that, many train both
bench and rows in the same day, to furthor the
crossover benefit at the neural level. I'm not sure
how necessary that is, but I train this way myself,
and think it helps.
One more example of the shoulder area that we were
talking about before. Every Olypmic Lifter has to hold
huge amounts of weight over their head at the
completion of the snatch and the C&J. In fact, the
last motion of the C&J is practically a push press!
However, even with all this heavy, heavy shoulder
work, Olympic Lifters have shoulder area problems a
lot less frequently than Powerlifters. This is because
cleans, snatches, and the other variations of Olympic
Lifts have external rotation built into them. Thus, no
strength imbalance ever develops!
(http://www.mesomorphosis.com/forums/...sage_ID=191467)









Date: 02/06/03 11:48 AM
Author: Perry Como
Subject: RE: ..

DOMS = Delayed Onset of Muscle Soreness
And we have all been there. I remember two to tree years back where I
followed the old dichotonomy of you must feel sore, I managed to get
and keep each muscle group sore for 3 days and I developed a split
where the only thing I lost out on was rear delts...
I have to confess I haven't tried HST yet, but I am going to shortly
so I can't compare, but there is one thing that I know... being sore
24/7 takes it's toll mentally - you needed to be soooo disciplined to
keep that going...
Can't help you any more than that...
Como
(http://www.mesomorphosis.com/forums/...sage_ID=191197)









Date: 02/06/03 01:43 PM
Author: deadguy
Subject: RE: RE: ..

this is why i asked this question..i knew i could get a wealth of
information to benefit myself as well as others. I, like Perry, have
yet to try the HST methods, and I would like to try them at some
point. Research will tell me if it is what i want to do.
Hogg you mentioned that soreness in the pecs, bi's and hams was a
good indicator that more rest should be taken for those areas. Why
is that? Succeptibility to tearing?
(http://www.mesomorphosis.com/forums/...sage_ID=191290)









Date: 02/06/03 02:33 PM
Author: Hogg
Subject: RE: RE: ..

pecs, bis, and hams are typically where ruptures occur in
athletes. Its pretty hard to tear a lat or a soleus but its not
too hard to roll your bicep up like a window shade, rip a pec off,
or pop a muscle in the ham complex.
(http://www.mesomorphosis.com/forums/...sage_ID=191317)

[Phreezer]

Date: 02/06/03 04:10 PM
Author: AnimalMass
Subject: RE: RE: ..

God, I've missed discussions like this.
Both Freddy and Hogg make valid points. I'm not sure there is a
right answer on whether waste products/ lactic acid contributes
to the soreness, or whether it is just microtrauma - I tend to
think that one or both may be present.
I can only fall back on previous ecperience here, though,
because as Hogg noted, no one really knows for sure what is
causing DOMS. What I do know, is that after doing HST, I was
sore as hell from what had to be lactic acid, and not as much
microtrauma, as I was doing a much, much heavier, powerlifting
routine prior to doing the HST, and rarely went above 3reps on
anything - so when I went to 15 reps on everything - it damn
near killed me - including several nasty lactic acid vomiting
sessions.
Now, I've been back at Powerlifting for two years, and rarely
experience true soreness. - I get some minor soreness almost
everyday, but not the kind where I can't walk, like I used to
have with bodybuilding routines.
So the question may also be, does extreme high weight cause
microtrauma as much as higer reps? I don't think so. I mean, why
doesn't doing 8 sets of 2 reps of squats at around 750 pounds at
the top make me sore as hell the next day? But if I throw on 315
and hit 15 reps, I probably couldn't walk. The only thing I can
think of, is the continual heavy contraction of the muscle under
force (even at under 50% 1RM) causes more microtrauma than just
several reps at a much higher weight (even 90+% of 1rm). -
Something to be debated for sure.
As far as working out while sore - I tend to lean more towards
Freddy here, although Hogg makes valid points...I think Hogg is
referring more towards intense DOMS - DOMS that would realy only
be felt by Bodybuilders who kill their muscles once per week or
so. Strength athletes should rarely, if ever, feel this
intensity of DOMS - I never do - (except when I just injected
about 4ccs of IP Alcohal in my quad - lol). If a bodybuilder was
attempting to work out in a dual factor theory kind of way, like
HST, he shouldn't experience extreme DOMS. If he did, the
intensity is probably too high, and yes, he should take his next
workout off.
However, when experiencing a smaller amount of DOMS due most
likely to microtrauma, (like myself and other strength althletes
experience on an almost daily basis), I think it is beneficial
to continue to work out under the set periodization as per dual
factor theory. Freddy pointed out, that not to work out, will
lead to a lowering a GPP, (although not by just skipping one
workout - but continually if this is done - obviously GPP won't
increase)
Aditionally, I feel it is beneficial to incorporate Active
Release Training is areas where some mild microtrauma has
occured. By working the muscle/s that are mildly sore with
approximately <20% 1RM, and lots of reps, one can flood the area
with blood and the area miraculously heals faster. Hot/ Cold
showers, massaging of the area, dixie cup massages to dig out
scar tissue (which is probably form some form of macrotrauma
awhile back), are all beneficial in combating and living with
DOMS, and ensuring that one is less likely to experience any
severe injury or macrotrauma.
AnimalMass
(http://www.mesomorphosis.com/forums/...sage_ID=191382)

[Phreezer]

Date: 02/06/03 04:58 PM
Author: Gavin Laird (no profile)
Subject: soreness etc

The relationship between training, soreness and progress (as I
see it) is as follows:
Training can provide a stimulus for progress.
Training can induce Delayed Onset Muscular Soreness (DOMS).
Different training means have different effects on short and
long term training effects.
Soreness does not equal progress in size or strength.
Progress in size / strength is not reliant upon soreness.
Soreness and progress can coincide, but there is not a causal
relationship between them. Sometimes the training means that
induce soreness also happen to be the same ones that provide a
stimulus for progress in strength at a particular time. Alas,
this is not always the case or training would be a simple case
of making yourself sore, waiting for the soreness to go away,
and then making yourself sore again. This "single factor"
approach to progression fails to take in to account that
although maximal efforts are not possible during recovery
periods, sub-maximal efforts are possible and can play a
useful part in enhancing progress further still, as can the
use of different training means. This is an integral part of
any dual factor training means.
Training means that are well known for inducing soreness
include emphasised eccentric (negative) movements, sudden
increases in training volume of a given body part or lift and
the introduction of a novel exercise that you have not
performed for a long period of time. Obviously at some point
in an athletes training negative emphasis movements, increases
in training volume and the use of novel stimuli can all play a
part in generating renewed progress, but the key is to utilise
these means at the correct time and in the correct context.
Merely using them to generate DOMS is pointless.
The problem with training means that are designed to cause
soreness is simply that they can hinder further training in
the short term and that eventually hinders long term progress
in strength. This is "catastrophe theory" of fatigue in
action. Microtrauma becomes culmalative over time and
eventually it all goes to shit lol.
Admittedly this is more prevalent in beginning or intermediate
athletes, most Elite / sub-elite athletes are conditioned to
training despite muscular soreness and fatigue although this
rarely comes from deliberate attempts to cause DOMS. Careful
use of some of the restorative measures listed above in other
posts will serve to reduce microtruama (speed healing really)
and prevent the culmalative build up.
I am generally against training means that are deliberately
designed to cause exhaustion / fatigue (eg training "beyond"
failure, forced reps, drop sets etc)because of this, and also
because of their negative effect on the CNS.
These means (failure etc) can be used effectively from time to
time and are perhaps worthwhile when working with lower
loading schedules / low training frequencies but if these
means substantially reduce the athletes training frequency on
Fmax or circamaximal work then the possible benefits are often
negated. There is an old axiom that says "You can train hard
or you can train long...but you can't train hard for long"
that is often used to promote so called "High Intensity
Training (HIT)". A more useful axiom would be "You can train
to create soreness and fatigue, or you can train often, but
you can't train to create soreness and fatigue often". Both
methodologies are of value, at the correct time and in the
correct context, but this is a classic example of the conflict
between maximising training frequency and fatigue caused by
training reducing training frequency.
Why is it that most athletes, when given the choice, will
choose to utilise means that enforce low training volumes and
frequencies by creating large amounts of fatigue and soreness?
Many people would be better of making more use of the
submaximal repeated efforts method for hypertrophy and the
maximum effort method for increasing Fmax rather than
constantly trying to do both at once with the repeated efforts
method to the point of fatigue e.g. multiple sets to failure
on each lift.
Well, there ends my ramble on the matter, obviously I havent
exactly cleared up any of the relevant questions but i merely
wished to offer my thoughts on some of the matters brought up
and perhaps open the discussion up to encompass other points.
Cheers,
Gavin.
(http://www.mesomorphosis.com/forums/...sage_ID=191416)

[Phreezer]

Date: 02/06/03 05:38 PM
Author: Angel Face (no profile)
Subject: DOMS

I think Gavin has highlighted a lot of very good issues...
This discussion has highlighted a lot of the differences between BBing
and Powerlifting training methods....
...typically BBers train beyond the point of conentric failure and
incorporate so called 'principles' to increase 'intensity' (obvioulsy in
the BBing sense) with high volume....
...Microtrauma (sarcomere popping) is mainly the result of the eccentric
portion of the lift which you find a lot of bodybuilders emphasize...
powerlifting is different, yes the loads are much superior but how often
do powerlfters train to the point of failure? or even beyond...also the
amount of volume that is performed for individual muscles is much less
...As such the muscular adaptations that result from these modes of
training are different (sarcoplasmmic and myofibrillar
hypertrophy?!?!?)...
To reduce soreness an adequate warmdown is neccessary as this will help
clear residual Lactic acid...as Freddy said in his post his soreness
diminished after a workout this possiby could be the result of lactic
acid that had cleared....
I dont think that Bodybuilders should train a muscle that is sore to the
point of failure as this will lead to macrotrauma over
time...powerlifting is different in that it is not the goal of a
powerlifer to increase the size of individual muscles but to increase
the load lifted...if soreness is present eccentric work needs to be
limited...
...This also highlightes the need for a decent warm down routine
incorporating mobility work and stretching....
(http://www.mesomorphosis.com/forums/...sage_ID=191451)








Date: 02/06/03 07:35 PM
Author: deadguy
Subject: RE: DOMS

Reading these posts and reflecting on my routines has made me realize
two important factors in my soreness.
I rarely, if ever, do the same movements in a two week period. I
emphasize negative movements as well as differing angles of
concentration in each exercise i do. I feel these methods cover all
bases and the muscle will be broken down in every area. Yes, I have
been focusing on the BBing aspects of lifting. Failure is reached on
every exercise, with one or two forced reps occuring frequently.
Pecs...the highest amount of soreness week in and week out by far.
Strong tri's, mediocre delt strength, weak pecs. The stretch mentioned
earlier at the bottom of the moveet is crucial to my soreness. DB
days..less soreness afterwards. BB days...quite a bit more.
Warm down periods..rarely do I "cool down" after an intense workout.
In cutting cycles, I follow high-rep workouts with stationary bike
rides. I do know that during these periods, I experience less soreness
after a week or two of these workouts. The first week is pure hell due
to the sudden switch in programs.
What i'm saying is, the points you all brought up have attributed to
the soreness i experience. As long as it is not a hinderence to
growth, I will not complain or change anything.
(http://www.mesomorphosis.com/forums/...sage_ID=191523)









Date: 02/06/03 08:19 PM
Edited: 02/06/03 08:19 PM
Author: Freddy
Subject: RE: RE: DOMS

That workout would definitely leave me sore.
First, Deadguy, before I say anything, JS always taught me to ask
myself (and others) one important question: "Does it work?"
What are your goals? I mean specific goals. My goal is to press 300#
raw, natually (as a gym lift) within the next month or two. I have a
strict plan to make this happen, and it will happen soon.
What are you goals...and be specific. Then, evaluate what you have
to do to get there...whether its gain 5 pounds in a certain amount
of weeks/months, or raise a specific lift by so much.
Get a plan, and make sure it works. Don't rely on "da pump" to make
you big and strong.
If this style of training has been meeting your goals...then don't
change it. However, if it hasn't, than don't get apathetic. Find the
changes that need to be made, and make them.
(http://www.mesomorphosis.com/forums/...sage_ID=191548)

[jago25_98]

Do we at least have an answer to the very simple and imprtant question:

Should I train when sore?

Answer: Minor soreness is ok, major soreness probably no. Not clear.