How Can I Oly Squat W/o Knee Problems

[road warrior]

Hey Bros... Pro Am cyclist here and I've been doing the 5x5's for 5 wks now. I weigh 145 lbs and have been oly squatting 135 until last wk when my left knee started having a twing of pain. I can't afford knee problems because I need the paycheck from my bike races. Would using a smith machine for oly squats help this problem or is that taboo?

Almost everyone I see at my gym is very outspoken about how I am ruining my knees doing oly squats. One guy told me that's why the military stopped using them...

road warrior

[wee man]

I had a six month hiatus from training,before that i too suffered knee pain somewhat and returning training in the new year my knees were the same unless i wrapped them,but after training the pain would return.
after reading the posts on this board about squatting,i ditched the wraps(the only accessories i used training anyway)concentrated on trying to sit back more,and stop my knees going way forward and my knees are now better than theyve been in years.
The point to this,pain in the knees from squatting,im sure, most of the time is bad technique,maybe get someone to photograph you digitally and check your form,make sure your not bouncing at the bottom of the movement also.I also notice about 90 odd % of lifters i speak to in gyms say oly squatting is bad for the knees thats why they dont do them,these same lifters usually dont ever lift much over 250lbs after years of training!
Maybe try these things and see what happens?
Also smith machine squats when i did try them once,gave me more pain than id ever had squatting normally.

[crewchief]

hey can we bump for more info on this?

[road warrior]

bump

[Madcow2]

Smith machine is crap - it will almost certainly increase undesirable forces on the knee in one way or another as it will not match your body's line.

You can feel a twinge just walking around. The question is, is this chronic? Has it gone away? Just once? Is it worsening?

The could have resulted from a bit of overuse over the past few weeks or just be a flash in the pan one time thing. I wouldn't cut out olympic squats forever by any means but you want to understand what exactly is happening and treat is appropriately. Kind of tough to give advice with very limited info which is mostly just concern rather than specific details relating to pain, severity, frequency, etc...

[Freddy]

Hey Roadwarrior,
Sorry to hear about the knee problems, bud. First off, I agree with everything Madcow had to say.

Some other issues...

1.) Anyone who tells you Oly squats are bad for the knees is a certifiable moron. The knee is at its most disadvantaged and dangerous possition at parallel. By squatting to parallel, you stop and reverse the movement RIGHT at its most fragile point. THIS is very dangerous, which is why parallel squats should only be done by competitive powerlifters. Squatting past parallel is much safer, as you reverse the movement deep in the hole, where your knee is pretty damn stable.

JS is not only an amazingly accomplished athlete in his own right (former world champion powerlifter), but a VERY good olympic style-weightlifting coach. He has produced hundreds of champion and elite athletes, including a pro-cyclist or two, and none had knee problems from Oly squatting.

2.) Generally, if volume/frequency isn't the issue, its a form issue. How are you squatting? Are you sure your form is correct? What kind of footwear are you wearing? Whats your stance? We can talk about this more in depth if you'd like.

3.) You and I discussed your training at length in a previous thread. We estimated that this amount of weight training volume would be ok for you...but maybe we underestimated how demanding your cycling is. With all your cycling, maybe you need to cut back on the squatting? Remember, your biking is more important.

4.) At any rate, try a deloading week and see how you feel...do a few sets of 3 reps 2x a week instead of 5x5 for 3x a week.

[road warrior]

Thanks for all the input Freddy, Wee-Man & Madcow2-

The info in this thread has been very helpul bros, thanks a million. The pain I had was not tremendous, just a slight twing and could've been from being new to the squat exercise as Madcow suggested. My first instinct was to stop doing them because my goal is racing bikes and didn't want to jeporadize that in any way but after reading your post today I went in and did a 5x5 with slightly less weight and WOW! I reduced the load to improve my form as suggested and waa-laa, the pain is gone and they are soooo much better!!! I know I have to keep doing them, probably at 2xwk as recommended by Freddy since racing starts this weekend. BTW Thanks for the concern about the knee Freddy, I didn't let it get out of control and everything is fine now. I just backed off a little on the olys til I got some more advice.

All around the 5x5 has made a very big difference for me. Whats really sick is a friend of mine (super hotty) started working out with me last month and we're strictly adhering to the 5x5 program and she is suddenly F**KING RIPPED Bros! She is doing light weight but looks like a BBer already, of course she is very fit from cycling but she looks amazing.

neopro

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by road warrior

Thanks for all the input Freddy, Wee-Man & Madcow2-

The info in this thread has been very helpul bros, thanks a million. The pain I had was not tremendous, just a slight twing and could've been from being new to the squat exercise as Madcow suggested. My first instinct was to stop doing them because my goal is racing bikes and didn't want to jeporadize that in any way but after reading your post today I went in and did a 5x5 with slightly less weight and WOW! I reduced the load to improve my form as suggested and waa-laa, the pain is gone and they are soooo much better!!! I know I have to keep doing them, probably at 2xwk as recommended by Freddy since racing starts this weekend. BTW Thanks for the concern about the knee Freddy, I didn't let it get out of control and everything is fine now. I just backed off a little on the olys til I got some more advice.

All around the 5x5 has made a very big difference for me. Whats really sick is a friend of mine (super hotty) started working out with me last month and we're strictly adhering to the 5x5 program and she is suddenly F**KING RIPPED Bros! She is doing light weight but looks like a BBer already, of course she is very fit from cycling but she looks amazing.

neopro

Glad it worked. Form will be crucial, especially in the beginning.

Those of us who've been Oly squatting for a while find it really easy, and we take it for granted that it IS hard to learn at first. I wish my thread on "how to Oly squat" was bumped, maybe I'll hunt it down.

Keep at the hard work, let us know how it goes.

[randy650]

Hey Bro,

1. When you squat do not have knees go past 90 degrees in correlation with your feet.

2. Bend at your waist and sit back, do not let your knees break before you break at the hips.

This should help you take some stress off the knees.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by randy650

Hey Bro,

1. When you squat do not have knees go past 90 degrees in correlation with your feet.

2. Bend at your waist and sit back, do not let your knees break before you break at the hips.

This should help you take some stress off the knees.

Roadwarrior, don't do this.

Randy, thats good advice for teaching someone how to squat like a powerlifter, but thats not what we're trying to teach him. Not that we have anything against that, AnimalMass and I are both powerlifters.

For RW's goals Oly squats (narrow stance, ass-to-grass, high bar) are much more benefitial.

[kasper2133]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Roadwarrior, don't do this.

Randy, thats good advice for teaching someone how to squat like a powerlifter, but thats not what we're trying to teach him. Not that we have anything against that, AnimalMass and I are both powerlifters.

For RW's goals Oly squats (narrow stance, ass-to-grass, high bar) are much more benefitial.

So in a OL squat you should not sit back as much, and the hips should not be the first to go, but hips and knees simultaneously?

[Grizzly]

I recall reading where, in the Olympic squat, you want to squat "inbetween your legs", if that makes sense. That's how it was described in what I read. I interpret this to mean a lot less pushing the ass back and more of trying to drop it straight to the floor.

Freddy?

[kasper2133]

Originally Posted by Grizzly

I recall reading where, in the Olympic squat, you want to squat "inbetween your legs", if that makes sense. That's how it was described in what I read. I interpret this to mean a lot less pushing the ass back and more of trying to drop it straight to the floor.

Freddy?

So that would mean the feet should at shoulder width apart and be pointed out app. 45 degress, and let the knees follow them on the down. Isn't that hard on the hips?

Is it wrong if you have your feet pointed more straight forward and when you squat, the knees would point more straight ahead?

A movieclip would really help here.

[Freddy]

Yes, you won't be sticking your ass out as much.

Just do what you have to do to get your ass as deep into the bottom possition of the squat as it will go.

[kasper2133]

So that would mean the feet should at shoulder width apart and be pointed out app. 45 degress, and let the knees follow them on the down. Isn't that hard on the hips?

Is it wrong if you have your feet pointed more straight forward and when you squat, the knees would point more straight ahead?

A movieclip would really help here.