incline/flat dumbell flyes....why the hate?

[nightcrew213]

I've seen some posts on this board and others with their comments on dumbell flyes.Why the negative attitude?
First off everyone's body is different and responds different.Whether it be aas or training.One training routine does not "fit all".
I have a large developed chest,inner,outer and sides.All my chest routine consists of is flat bench heavy,flat flyes and inclines flyes.I have never used a cable move in any chest exercise.I might throw in some incline dumbell press but,I keep it simple and basic.
I think I'm doing ok at a max one rep of 390 for bench,140 flat flyes and 100 incline flyes,both for 3-4 sets at 10 reps each.

[Pablo34]

If you are "flyeing" with that much weight, chances are you aren't doing a true dumbell flye. It sounds like a hybrid of a dumbell press and a dumbell flye, with the elbows bent and the range of motion shortened. A proper flye has a SLIGHT bend in the elbow, going down to where your arms are parallel with your chest, and then completely touching at the top.

A lot of guys don't like it because it isn't as optimal for building strength and mass as a dumbell press. It also takes a long time to recover from the muscle soreness that flyes produce; a lot of guys think it's unnecessary.

I myself, since I came to Meso, have cut them out of my routine completely, and my chest has developed nicely with just flat bench, incline dumbell press, and dips.

[Grizzly]

Nice response.

[Desibaba]

Originally Posted by Bigkarch

My thoughts exactly... No way in hell he is doing a proper flye at that weight. I still do them occassionally, to stretch my pecs after a workout, or if I do two workouts per week per bodypart, I will do them for the second less intense workout, with higher reps.

Even most of the strongest pros dont go heavier than 100 lbs or so on flyes.Also i have noticed training methods that are common vary from board to board.Here everyone likes high frequency training.If you go to chad nicholls board where a lot of bodybuilding competitors hang out youll notice most recommend using the once a week blast for indivisual bodyparts consisting of 12 to 15 sets a bodypart. In general you wont see many guys on this board who are competitive bodybuilders.Most who post in the training forum are powerlifters so you have to take what they say with a bit of salt if you goal is to build as much muscle as possible with little or no regard for strenght.

[Gavin Laird]

Originally Posted by Desibaba

Most who post in the training forum are powerlifters so you have to take what they say with a bit of salt if you goal is to build as much muscle as possible with little or no regard for strenght.

...should have read...

Originally Posted by Desibaba

Most who post in the training forum at Meso actually have a fucking clue so you have to take what they say as gospel, preferably on your knees with head solemnly bowed begging forgiveness for even intruding into their lives with your talk of "curls" and "six packs".

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Gavin Laird

...should have read...

HAHHAHAHA.

Thats the best training advice I've read all day.

[Grizzly]

LOL Damn, Gavin, that was good!

I must say, though, Desi is right. Those who pursue strength never gain signifcant muscle mass. If those strongman competitors all dieted down they would be 6'4", anemic, 175lb middleweights.....oh wait a minute, Pudz is already dieted down to the point where he could pull a train, pick up a 500lb rock and then turn around, pose and win a national level show. Hmmmmm, that certainly throws a wrench in the thing.

[AnimalMass]

That was fucking great Gavin.

No more to say here. We are the smartest training guys on the net hands down.

Matt

[nightcrew213]

You know I'm sorry about my 120lb incline flyes.If you guys dont belive me fine.My chest and shoulder structure is huge and I'm very strong.

[AnimalMass]

this is easy bud - just post a video of you doing them. Wait, you don't even need to post a video. Post a picture of you doing flyes in the bottom portion of the lift. My guess is that your elbows will be bent at 90 degrees rather than about 165 degrees, which is where they would be if it was a true fly, rather than a hybrid dumbell press.

No one is putting you down either. My workout partner benches 700+ and is one of the strongest human beings in the world and I know for a fact he could never fly that much weight. Dumbell press it, yes. Fly it, no.

Matt

[monsoon]

are you using 120lb dbs or 60 in each hand?

[monsoon]

and by the way, nice post Gavin.

[Sir Lifts-a-Lot]

I think flyes are more of a stretching routine then an actual lifting technique. If any of you are familliar with the DoggCrapp training method you will know what I am talking about.

They help to develop a more fuller chest but that is about it. They dont add mass for the most part. That is why most people that do still do flyes do them last after they have exahusted their chest. The best way to look at flyes is to just do one negative set for about a minute and really hold and press your chest up while doing it. It will give you all the benefits of flyes (the stretching of the chest).

[Ramstein II]

They're probably what I call "fly-presses" which can be used to take the triceps out of the movement a bit, could put your connective tissue at risk and detract from the synergy you get with a true pressing movement. I've used flyes and fly movements but rarely do anymore. Here's why we hate them:

low load, lots of damage from all the stretching yeilding bookoo soreness. Guys who think soreness equals growth tend to like flyes as they can make you very sore. They're not necessary and can be dangerous when you start getting stronger.

Every exercise you do is a compromise of balance/stability, load, and stretch. Obviously, a stretch is needed to involve the target muscle, but too much stretch detracts from load. Some instability is needed to stimulate the neuromuscular connection, but too much instability as in the case of swiss ball lifting and the like and you detract from load. Too much stability as in the case of machines and you can use more load, but the stability detracts from the neuromuscular aspect of lifting. This is why compound free weight lifting gives you the best compromise in stability/instability, loading, and stretching.

I'd bet that most people who drop flies won't lose any mass or strength. I'd take it a step further and bet that most people who dropped flies would gain more.

[HeavyLiftr]

I keep flyes in my routine, but I'm definitely not hitting 100 pounders. They're a finishing movement for me, as are cable flyes if I choose to incorporate those instead.

I prefer doing them on a slight incline - as I do all of my presses, even if the bench is elevated with a couple of 25 pound plates - and with pretty light weights - between 50 - 70 pounds. If you do them with control you'll definitely have no problem feeling them in your chest, lateral delts, and tris.

Of course the others here are correct - if you choose to drop flyes you'll still have a nicely developed and full chest. But the tie in between the chest and deltoid is worked quite nicely with flyes, at least that's where I've always felt the soresness following the workout.