Question for the all knowledgeable ones (Hogg, AM, JS, and so forth)

[steve miller]

hey guys i recenty started (Monday) to try to intitute a split where i would hit every body part 3 x in a 7-8 day period...i only do 1 exercise per body part per session and 1-2 worksets and a total amount of sets 4-5....example monday
Deadlift, incline db, skulls, calves
tuesday: push press, uprights, bent rows,hammers

now i do alter load each time for example maybe monday go heavy, wed go light, etc... what do u think for this i am experimenting ...but do u think it woudl lead to overtraining and plateaued growth ...thanks

[Freddy]

Do Grizzly's routine. You can find it outlined in the thread called "Just started working out - hows my routine? "

Its similar to what you want to do, with a lot of comparable exercises. When you read the thread, follow Grizzly's plan, but read my posts and consider doing my amendments.

Both Grizzly's way and my way will work, especially for someone new to this type of training. However, I'm more partial to my periodization.

If you want, I can outline how much weight you should do for each exercise on each day for each week.

[Hogg]

I could have sworn that in one of my books, a study was noted wherein training 3x per week had no beneficial impact over training 2x.....I cant remember where I saw it but I distinctly remember that the text said the physiological adaptation was any greater.

However, we know that 3x programs work as HST does in fact produce results and we know that bodybuilders have used a 3x per week AM/PM precontest split with good success.

What you have mentioned in terms of volume sounds good since such a high frequency will necessitate lower volume. I'd take Freddy up on his offer to structure your loading; he has a command of the science as well as a considerable amount of practical experience. Grizzly's just a ham-fisted no-holds-barred fighter that curls glasses of wine as frequently as he curls a dumbbell Just joking of course Grizzwoldo.

Take care.

[steve miller]

thanks guys...Freddy i will definetly take u up on your offer i woudl appreciate this greatly ,,,you have no idea how much i woudl appreciate it....let me know the information you would need to do this either email me or let me know what works best for you ...thanks bro

[Ramstein II]

The studies on 3x training vs. 2x training are mixed, but I’ll say this, those who advocate 3x training, such as Bill Star, use one of those days as a light day to work out kinks, soreness, etc... It is a kind of blood flow day for repair, so you might consider dropping it altogether for just a total rest day or a day of walking, very light jogging or cycling etc...

If you are going to do 2x or 3x week training, watch out for one thing in particular–your lower back (your spinal erectors). These do require 7 days of recovery, and that has been documented in studies. The reason is they have poor blood supply and recuperate more slowly. So, I wouldn’t do deadlifts one day and rows the next workout or any other workout that stresses the low back. You may develop a different philosophy on how you view exercises, such as all squat movements are knee complex movements, meaning they focus the load toward the knee (unless you hip squat like a power lifter), deadlifts are hip complex, all pressing is shoulder complex, and all compound upper body pulling are back complex movements. So, this way you see that exercises falling into these categories are either heavy, medium, or light movements for essentially the same muscle groups. This allows you to design 2 or 3 different workouts that, because of the mechanics involved, will dictate the load. I didn’t invent this idea, so I won’t take credit for it. Bill Star (famous strength coach) thought of this. For example, bench press is a heavy shoulder complex move, incline press is a medium, and military press is a light. So there you have your 3 pressing exercises for the week. Back might be rows, chinups, and something like pullovers. Knee might be squat, front squat, and sissy squats. Hip might be deadlifts (or romanian deadlifts which are my favorite), and reverse lunges.

So, this way you monitor your load through manipulation of your body mechanics instead of just doing the same or workout with heavy, medium, or light weight. This will also help avoid overuse injuries from doing the same exercises.

So a heavy medium light program might be:

Day 1: Squat, Romanian DL, Bench Press, Row

Day 2: Front Squat, Reverse Lunge, Incline Bench Press, Chin up

Day 3: Sissy squat, Military Press, Pullover, upright row, barbell curl, lying french press, abs

[Grizzly]

Originally Posted by Hogg

Grizzly's just a ham-fisted no-holds-barred fighter that curls glasses of wine as frequently as he curls a dumbbell Just joking of course Grizzwoldo.

Take care.

Joking or not, you're still correct. I haven't curled a dumbbell in months upon months. I have, however, curled a wine glass within the last two weeks.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by steve miller

thanks guys...Freddy i will definetly take u up on your offer i woudl appreciate this greatly ,,,you have no idea how much i woudl appreciate it....let me know the information you would need to do this either email me or let me know what works best for you ...thanks bro

As long as you're not shy, we could just post it all right here, so people have a good idea how they might want to try it.

For starters, I need to know your 5 rep maxes for the exercises:

Bench Press
Squat
Push Press
Clean

Hang Clean
Deadlift
Chin-up
BB Bent Over Row

[steve miller]

For starters, I need to know your 5 rep maxes for the exercises:

Bench Press (close grip i dont regular bad on shoulder) 330x5
Squat (maybe) 300x5 i dont hardly ever squat
Push Press 255-260x5
Clean not sure?

Hang Clean not sure like 185 or so
Deadlift 385X5
Chin-up 12-15
BB Bent Over Row 210x5

i mainly do this for bb purposes not powerlifting

[Freddy]

Yeah, I assumed you were lifting for aesthetic, not performance, reasons. No biggie. Make sure you learn to squat ass-to-grass, but that will come in time.

The program is this:

Working out 4 times a week, monday, tuesday, thursday and friday.

workout A (mon, thurs):
Bench Press 3x5
Squat 3x5
Push Press 3x5
Clean (originaly had Clean & Jerk) 3x5

Workout (tues, frid) B
Hang Clean 3x5
Deadlift 3x5
Chin-up 3x5
BB Bent Over Row 3x5

WEEK 1:
Monday:
Bench Press: 3x5x300
Squat: 3x5x205
Push Press: 3x5x185
Clean: 3x5x135

Tuesday:
Hang Clean 3x5x135
Deadlift 3x5x345
Chin-up 3x5xbodyweight
BB Bent Over Row 3x5x165

Thursday:
Bench Press 3x5x250
Squat 3x5x255
Push Press 3x5x230
Clean 3x5

Friday:
Hang Clean 3x5x135
Deadlift 3x5x300
Chin-up 3x5x345
BB Bent Over Row 3x5x165

WEEK 2:
Monday:
Bench Press: 3x5x305
Squat: 3x5x210
Push Press: 3x5x190
Clean: 3x5x140

Tuesday:
Hang Clean 3x5x140
Deadlift 3x5x355
Chin-up 3x5xbodyweight +5
BB Bent Over Row 3x5x170

Thursday:
Bench Press 3x5x255
Squat 3x5x260
Push Press 3x5x235
Clean 3x5x140

Friday:
Hang Clean 3x5x140
Deadlift 3x5x310
Chin-up 3x5xbodyweight +5
BB Bent Over Row 3x5x170

WEEK 3:
Monday:
Bench Press: 3x5x310
Squat: 3x5x220
Push Press: 3x5x195
Clean: 3x5x145

Tuesday:
Hang Clean 3x5x145
Deadlift 3x5x365
Chin-up 3x5xbodyweight +10
BB Bent Over Row 3x5x175

Thursday:
Bench Press 3x5x260
Squat 3x5x270
Push Press 3x5x240
Clean 3x5x145

Friday:
Hang Clean 3x5x145
Deadlift 3x5x320
Chin-up 3x5xbodyweight +10
BB Bent Over Row 3x5x175

WEEK 4:
Monday:
Bench Press: 3x5x315
Squat: 3x5x230
Push Press: 3x5x200
Clean: 3x5x150

Tuesday:
Hang Clean 3x5x150
Deadlift 3x5x375
Chin-up 3x5xbodyweight +15
BB Bent Over Row 3x5x180

Thursday:
Bench Press 3x5x265
Squat 3x5x280
Push Press 3x5x245
Clean 3x5x150

Friday:
Hang Clean 3x5x150
Deadlift 3x5x330
Chin-up 3x5xbodyweight +15
BB Bent Over Row 3x5x180

WEEK 5:
Monday:
Bench Press 2x3x320
Squat 2x3x290
Push Press 2x3x250
Clean 2x3x155

Thursday:
Hang Clean 2x3x155
Deadlift 2x3x385
Chin up 2x3xbodyweight +20
BB Bent Over Row 2x3x185

WEEK 6
Monday:
Bench Press 2x3x325
Squat 2x3x300
Push Press 2x3x255
Clean 2x3x160

Thursday:
Hang Clean 2x3x160
Deadlift 2x3x395
Chin up 2x3xbodyweight +25
BB Bent Over Row 2x3x190

WEEK 7:
Monday:
Bench Press 2x3x330
Squat 2x3x310
Push Press 2x3x260
Clean 2x3x165

Thursday:
Hang Clean 2x3x165
Deadlift 2x3x405
Chin up 2x3xbodyweight +30
BB Bent Over Row 2x3x195

WEEK 8:
Monday:
Bench Press 2x3x335
Squat 2x3x320
Push Press 2x3x265
Clean 2x3x170

Thursday:
Hang Clean 2x3x170
Deadlift 2x3x415
Chin up 2x3xbodyweight +35
BB Bent Over Row 2x3x200

WEEK 9:
Monday:
Bench Press 2x3x340
Squat 2x3x330
Push Press 2x3x270
Clean 2x3x175

Thursday:
Hang Clean 2x3x175
Deadlift 2x3x425
Chin up 2x3xbodyweight +40
BB Bent Over Row 2x3x205

WEEK 10
Monday:
Bench Press 2x3x300
Squat 2x3x280
Push Press 2x3x225
Clean 2x3x135

Thursday:
Hang Clean 2x3x135
Deadlift 2x3x365
Chin up 2x3xbodyweight +10
BB Bent Over Row 2x3x150

AFTER WEEK 10, start cycle over, and increase all starting weights by 5-10 pounds accordingly.

You should be able to hit all these poundages without missing a rep or a set. However, if you fail, and are unable to do so, try the weight again next week. Do not do any forced reps or negatives or anything. Just try again next week. If you fail on a set or rep in week 4, just go on to the scheduled weights in week 5 and don't sweat it.

These weights should be perfect for you, but if you find that the "heavy" days seem a little light, don't worry. Its best to start a routine like this conservatively...you will definitely regret it if you use weight that is too heavy early on.

If you have any questions, please ask. And please, learn to squat well.
EDIT: Oh yeah, one last thing. Warm ups should be 2 sets of 5 reps with the Olympic bar for each exercise before you do the work sets. Thats it. Don't pyramid up or anything. Just two light sets with the bar, then pile the weight plates on and go crazy.

Originally Posted by steve miller

For starters, I need to know your 5 rep maxes for the exercises:

Bench Press (close grip i dont regular bad on shoulder) 330x5
Squat (maybe) 300x5 i dont hardly ever squat
Push Press 255-260x5
Clean not sure?

Hang Clean not sure like 185 or so
Deadlift 385X5
Chin-up 12-15
BB Bent Over Row 210x5

i mainly do this for bb purposes not powerlifting

[steve miller]

Hey bro thank you very much i will start that on monday...i really appreciate the help greatly...also one ?,,,,, i am going to continue to do bicep work,,,should i through that in the same day i do rows and chins also i like to do side lateral work because it really blows up my shoulders well and gives good definition...can i throw a couple of sets of that in there as well....thanks bro for all your help and knowledge once again i greatly appreciate this...also is this regiment geared more towards strenght or hypertrophy i woudl think more towards strength...anyway i look forward to trying it thank you bro

[Grizzly]

With the chins and BB rows, you should be stressing the bis enough. Give them a rest for 10 weeks. It won't kill you and they won't magically disappear. I'd also leave the lateral raises out, too. Try it this way and see what happens.

[Freddy]

Grizz is right.

But since you'll probably go nuts if you don't curl, like most Americans...do 2 sets of curls on A days.

EDIT: Do NOT add in shoulder raises or any more shoulder work. The program has tons of direct and indirect shoulder work as is...it can't handle any more, trust me.

You will get "definition" from burning calories from doing those cleans. They're difficult lifts.

[strengthcoach]

Im just wondering why speed-strenght lifts are being done last in the workout?

4 weeks are spent at 3x5....then a slight decline in volume 2x3. There is very little change in the overal volume, and your using an outdated system of periodization.

The alteration in training volume is too narrow, and a larger variation would create greater adaptation.

As for the frequency issue, if you go back to the works of K. Hakkenen you will see that the higher the frequency of training, at the same volume, the greater the result.

Just some things you may want to think about.

Strengthcoach

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by strengthcoach

Im just wondering why speed-strenght lifts are being done last in the workout?

You can pull heavy after pressing, many good programs do this. One incarnation of Bill Starr's 5x5 has powercleaning performed after some pressing movements. WSB has back work performed after pressing too (in the form of rows usually).

If we were talking about an athlete whose real concern was developing better speed, than I totatlly agree, it might be ideal to do them first. However, keep in mind that he is a recreational bodybuilder...for purposes of weight gain, I don't think you can argue this won't work.

Originally Posted by strengthcoach

4 weeks are spent at 3x5....then a slight decline in volume 2x3. There is very little change in the overal volume, and your using an outdated system of periodization.

This is a dual factor program, and its not linear periodization. The difficulty increases, dips down, and then increases again towards a peak. This is different than normal linear periodized programs, which cannot guage difficulty quantitatively.

This is still used by a lot of successful clubs.

Originally Posted by strengthcoach

The alteration in training volume is too narrow, and a larger variation would create greater adaptation.

Maybe...but I don't think so. I think you forgot that frequency declines at the same time as daily volume...so weekly volume is drastically lowered. You're doing as little as 2 sets a week in place of 6...thats a 1/3 of the volume. Thats pretty drastic.

Originally Posted by strengthcoach

As for the frequency issue, if you go back to the works of K. Hakkenen you will see that the higher the frequency of training, at the same volume, the greater the result.

Just some things you may want to think about.

Strengthcoach

It begins with fairly high frequency, especially for someone new to this type of training, which remember...this athlete is. Granted, its no where near the amount of frequency that elite strength athletes are using...with 14-32 workouts per week...but remember, we're not talking about an Alexiev, a Chuck V, a Steve Goggins, or a Tavakoli.