questions about 5x5

[Bal]

Hey bros, I'm starting the 5x5 workout up in the stickies, but I had a couple questions. First, am I solely supposed to do these exercises, or are these just the core exercises and I'm supposed to add in auxiliary exercises like arms, calves, and abs? Also, I was thinking of doing cleans instead of squats on Wednesdays and Inclines instead of bench on fridays. Anyways, let me know what you guys think.

--Bal

[johnsmith182]

subbing inclines for benches should be ok, but if your going to do cleans, i suspect you mean powercleans, id sub them for a back exercise, and probably cut the reps to 5 sets of 3. dont mess with the squats. if i were you, id try the program as written, and not add in anything for the first few weeks. its a lot harder than it looks.

Originally Posted by Bal

Hey bros, I'm starting the 5x5 workout up in the stickies, but I had a couple questions. First, am I solely supposed to do these exercises, or are these just the core exercises and I'm supposed to add in auxiliary exercises like arms, calves, and abs? Also, I was thinking of doing cleans instead of squats on Wednesdays and Inclines instead of bench on fridays. Anyways, let me know what you guys think.

--Bal

[Bal]

Originally Posted by johnsmith182

subbing inclines for benches should be ok, but if your going to do cleans, i suspect you mean powercleans, id sub them for a back exercise, and probably cut the reps to 5 sets of 3. dont mess with the squats. if i were you, id try the program as written, and not add in anything for the first few weeks. its a lot harder than it looks.

Thanks bro. Yeah, no kidding its hard... that's why I was asking cause after I'm done with those core exercises I want to go lie down in a fetal position instead of doing more auxiliary exercises on top of that.

--Bal

[Girth]

John, Freddy (or anyone):

I have used the 5x5 many times, and have since strayed. Age/wisdom however, has shifted my focus away from pure mass, back to sport performance. I'd like to go back to using the 5x5 for the strength conditioning portion of my program. I compete in volleyball, baketball, and baseball depending on the season.

-Can you give a comparison of the 3 day routine as referenced above, versus that of a 4 day, 2 way, heavy-light split. In what situation or under what circumstances would one be advantageous over the other? I have 10+ years of weight training and have a well developed base of strength.

- What split is preferred in the 4 day? Push-Pull or Upper-Lower? I fear Push-Pull due to the similarity of dead and squat. I am long limbed, and thus my deadlift is damn near a squat.

Thanks for the input!

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Girth

John, Freddy (or anyone):

I have used the 5x5 many times, and have since strayed. Age/wisdom however, has shifted my focus away from pure mass, back to sport performance. I'd like to go back to using the 5x5 for the strength conditioning portion of my program. I compete in volleyball, baketball, and baseball depending on the season.

-Can you give a comparison of the 3 day routine as referenced above, versus that of a 4 day, 2 way, heavy-light split. In what situation or under what circumstances would one be advantageous over the other? I have 10+ years of weight training and have a well developed base of strength.

- What split is preferred in the 4 day? Push-Pull or Upper-Lower? I fear Push-Pull due to the similarity of dead and squat. I am long limbed, and thus my deadlift is damn near a squat.

Thanks for the input!

The 5x5 (or 8 week squat program) is the best program in the world. Always try to use it or a variation of it for at least part of the year.

[johnsmith182]

when you get to a certain weight and workload, it is indeed tough to do it all on just 3 days... i think its really advantageous for beginners to do it on 3 days just to get in better shape, but at some point it is good to split it up, or at least go back and forth and switch to a split late in the cycle when the weights get really hard.

what i like to do is actually legs and back on one day, and shoulders, chest and and triceps on the other... sounds like a LOT more work on one day than another, and it is, and i believe this is good. all your training days should NOT be exactly the same stress level, you should have some hard days and some easy, and i think this accomplishes that goal.

if you do this, you can try just squatting two times a week, although i know that for some people three squat workouts work really well and they continue to add in light squats on one of the chest/shoulder days.

in general, what i would recomend if you do this is thye following

monday
heavy squat day, then something like powercleans or stiff leg deadlifts and then pullups

tuesday
heavy military press, heavy close grip bench press and then maybe something light for chest...

thursday
squats a bit lighter than monday, heavy deadlifts, heavy barbell rows, then some other back exercise, depending on what you need

friday
heavy bench press, lighter military press than tuesday or maybe DB militaries of some sort, some sort of nosebreakers or other tricep exercise.

or course some of the exercises i would really question the need to change, like the squats, militaries, benches, deadlifts, but others like the nosebreakers or pullups or closegrip benches could bd changed if you like other similar things.

i think a really good way to do this would be to do the 3 day a week program for a certain number of weeks, then switch to the 4 day split for a few weeks at the end when it really gets hard and you are having trouble getting it all done. this would let you keep going up in weights for a few extra weeks becasue of the lower frequency and less total work in each training session... then lower the weights again (but of course not totally back to the old levels) and start over again on the 3 day a week program.

a variation that i think i discussed in the post i wrote about the 5 by 5 training program and that you could use here for squats or for any other exercise you wanted to concentrate on would be to do 5 by 5 on one day then work to one max set of 5 on the second day... for instance if you really wanted to specialize on militaries you could start with militaries on tue and thur and on tue do 5 by 5 and on frir work to one top set of 3 or 5 reps... of course the same principle applies, when you first start the workouts with the top set of 3 or 5 start below your best set of that rep range, give yourself 2-3 weeks to work back to your old max and then pass it.

Originally Posted by Girth

John, Freddy (or anyone):

I have used the 5x5 many times, and have since strayed. Age/wisdom however, has shifted my focus away from pure mass, back to sport performance. I'd like to go back to using the 5x5 for the strength conditioning portion of my program. I compete in volleyball, baketball, and baseball depending on the season.

-Can you give a comparison of the 3 day routine as referenced above, versus that of a 4 day, 2 way, heavy-light split. In what situation or under what circumstances would one be advantageous over the other? I have 10+ years of weight training and have a well developed base of strength.

- What split is preferred in the 4 day? Push-Pull or Upper-Lower? I fear Push-Pull due to the similarity of dead and squat. I am long limbed, and thus my deadlift is damn near a squat.

Thanks for the input!

[Girth]

I apologize for the delay in responding. Many thanks gents. I respect all, but especially, the both of your opinions. It's good to see the effort you still put forth to explain things. I only hope people take a fraction of the time you took, to search for this information.

I only have one additional question. I like the split, as there is so much overlap with back and legs. However, why not have all your heavy lifts on one day? For example, the squat and dead are essentially the same movement. If you squat heavy on Monday, and then dead heavy on Thursday, won't you be negating the heavy-light principle?

Granted it would be easier to focus on 1 or 2 heavy lifts each day. But seeing as how nerves recover in 24-48 hours, but muscles take 4-7 days, won't you constantly be tearing the muscle down with the overlapping heavy lifts? Thus no supercompensation will occur outside of neural efficiency?

[johnsmith182]

complete tissue remodeling from one session of weight training takes about 6 weeks. the statement that muscles recover in 4-7 days is not really accurate... you CAN benefit from further training sessions even if you are not fully recovered from the previous one.






E=Girth]I apologize for the delay in responding. Many thanks gents. I respect all, but especially, the both of your opinions. It's good to see the effort you still put forth to explain things. I only hope people take a fraction of the time you took, to search for this information.

I only have one additional question. I like the split, as there is so much overlap with back and legs. However, why not have all your heavy lifts on one day? For example, the squat and dead are essentially the same movement. If you squat heavy on Monday, and then dead heavy on Thursday, won't you be negating the heavy-light principle?

Granted it would be easier to focus on 1 or 2 heavy lifts each day. But seeing as how nerves recover in 24-48 hours, but muscles take 4-7 days, won't you constantly be tearing the muscle down with the overlapping heavy lifts? Thus no supercompensation will occur outside of neural efficiency?[/quote]

[Girth]

And so it shall be done.....Thanks, I'll be posting the results of the above in a few months. May they be confused for statements of praise and testimonials of the unbiased, unpaid infomercial actor.

[Girth]

Everything is going well so far. The biggest thing I've noticed, is that my CNS is recovered. That, I'm sure is due to switching from a HIT style ("Doggcrapp") training, as well as the lowered loads I'm using to ramp up to my previous bests. I hope this CNS recovery continues once I get up into the new personal bests.

Speaking of the ramping up, is there a recommended % of previous best, that one should start their next cycle out at? Or is it just 5-10 lb. jumps based on the weight used for the lift in question?

[Girth]

bump

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Girth

Everything is going well so far. The biggest thing I've noticed, is that my CNS is recovered. That, I'm sure is due to switching from a HIT style ("Doggcrapp") training, as well as the lowered loads I'm using to ramp up to my previous bests. I hope this CNS recovery continues once I get up into the new personal bests.

Speaking of the ramping up, is there a recommended % of previous best, that one should start their next cycle out at? Or is it just 5-10 lb. jumps based on the weight used for the lift in question?

5-10 based on the lift in question. Squats, deads, etc...10 pounds usually, unless it felt really heavy last week. If it did, you might only be able to go up 5 pounds.

5 pounds for bench, rows, chins, etc.

[johnsmith182]

girth, its hard to put a percentage to it, becasue its kind of individual to the lifter, kind of like how light to go with the wednesday workout, some need to back off more than ohters. a couple of good rules of thumb, you should be at or near PR levels around week 3 or 4, you should definately be trying a new PR by week 5. some people can do it sooner than this, kind of depends on how long you have been training.

as far as the size of the jumps and how far below PR levels you should start, the stronger you are and the longer you have been training, the lower you should start, and therefore the bigger the jumps. 10lbs for the squat is a good rule of thumb for many lifters. however ive seen lifters who need to start way lower and take way bigger jumps. as ive gotten older, ive become one of them.

id say if you are squatting 350 or less for sets of 5, then 10lb jumps will be about right, unless your weighing like 150-160lbs or something light like that and that represents a really good squat... assuming you are 200+lbs, then the 10lb jumps should be about right. if your squatting 500 or so for sets of 5, then 15-20lb jumps every week might work better. if you are handling 600-700lbs in your workouts, then you will definately need to take bigger jumps. when i was in this situation, i took jumps of 30lbs or so each workout.

if you are in your first or second year of training, you can usually start a little closer to your max, take smaller jumps, and be at a new PR earlier. the longer you have been training, and the stronger you are, the lower you need to start relative to your old max, the bigger jumps you should make, and the longer it will take you to get to new PR levels.

does that make sense?

i should say that all this is based on a high bar olympic style squat, deep and close stance and no wraps or suit, personally i dont even wear a belt when i do this workout. if you are half-squatting, or squatting powerlifting style then it might need to be significantly different.

Originally Posted by Freddy

5-10 based on the lift in question. Squats, deads, etc...10 pounds usually, unless it felt really heavy last week. If it did, you might only be able to go up 5 pounds.

5 pounds for bench, rows, chins, etc.

[Girth]

Sorry about the delay. I understand, and thanks for the detailed reply.

[Girth]

Thought I'd post my results, as they have spurred some questions I'd like to pose as well. The improvements haven't been as drastic as I'd hoped, but I feel that is due to a lowered caloric intake for fat loss purposes.

As it stands, I'm 5'10" and 195-200. %BF is anyone's guess as I can never put a number on it. Essentialy, lean enough to see veins in my quads, VERY apparent veins across my calves, and a "7" pack. My lifting stats are as follows:

Squat - 360 @ 5x5 / 410 x 1
Weighted Dips - 135 @ 5x5
Clean - 225 @ 3x5
Overhead Press - 155 @ 5x5
Weighted Chins - 55 @ 5x5

I only posted these so that I can give everyone an idea of my strength level, and thus ask the following questions.

- Size is of a secondary concern. I am most concerned with strength, power, speed, and the ability to perform at my given sport(s). Would I benefit from a conversion to a more WSB style routine? I've seen a few posts about the 5x5 routine being only used sparingly, once you reach a certain strength level.

- Does the WSB lifting style carry over into sports performance as much as the 5x5. Or is WSB only for increasing your 1RM for the lift trained. Thus, making it mainly for weightlifiting events?

- Provided that you do enough sport specific training, how much does your style of weight trianing affect sport performance? Can't speed and agility be improved with plyo's and drills, more effectively than Dynamic lifiting?