Training Forum: This is a discussion on Routine Change: Need Advice within the Bodybuilding forums, part of the extensive steroid information at MESO-Rx; I am changing my weight-training routine and I have a few questions...
Background: I am very busy with law-school and ...
I am changing my weight-training routine and I have a few questions...
Background: I am very busy with law-school and I am starting to train in BJJ again, so I am limited to training 2 or 3 days per week on weights and at most 2 hours per session. I usually do 3 sets of 10,8,6 reps (10 reps in 1st set, 8 reps in 2nd set and 6 reps in 3rd set). I am interesting in both strength and hypertrophy (about 50/50). I also want to use as many free-weights as possible. I would rather do fewer free-weight exercises than many machines. I WILL NOT sacrifice quality due to my time constraints.
Stats: 6' 0", 205lbs @ 8% BF. I am interested in gaining LBM (which means I want to gain weight, but I still eat very clean).
Routine Requests: I want to keep Deadlifts in my routine. Any routine that you recommend must include deadlifts.
Thank you for your help everyone. I appreciate it. Also, if I was vague, I will clarify if needed.
Hmm, there are a couple of variables here that factor in to recovery and the overall viability of the program. From what I know of bjj/vale tudo training, even the 20 minute warmup will have you breathing hard unless you have good cardio. With that said, I'd say that the best way to approach this is to consider the BJJ training as 3 days of cardio per week.
Let us assume that you can get 3 days of weight training in per week. As Bob said, HST might be an option but depending on what kind of weight you use, I think 45-60 minutes is a pipe dream....unless perhaps you are the type of guy that warms up in the squat with 2 plates, then 3 plates, then 4 plates....if you can get to 405 in 3 sets ( or whatever your training poundage is) then perhaps you could get it done in under an hour but I find that I need one set for movement orientation and usually one to four cascaded warmups with increasing poundages before I get to my target loads.....but that is just me and I have tailored my training over the past couple of years to my own training session tempo, warmup, and recuperative capacity. The bottom line is, whatever you do, you cant do someone else's workout if it doesnt fit you.
So, getting into the meat of things, keeping the deads in is good. I dont know if you get a lot of hamstring out of deadlifts or a lot of back. If you get a lot of back, then I'd call it a heavy lumbar movement and then select one other movement for later in the week such as GMs which emphasizes less lumbar and more hamstring (if you keep your back tight and shove your rump back, you will put a lot of load on the hams rather than the erectors).
So we have our lumbar and ham exercises. We should also add in something for our quads. I'm not sure if you find leg press or squatting more effective for quads. Some people say that they hit their quadriceps more effectively with the leg press and I do not doubt them.....matter of fact, over the years, I've come to realize that if a guy has been training for a while and his squat groove makes him a hip and ass squatter rather than a quad squatter, its probably better to just leave it that way because the reason he probably use that groove is comfort. I believe that all lifts should be comfortable and our anatomical differences will define our form a little bit. With that said, you'll have a toss up between squat and leg press or perhaps you will go 50/50 as I do. I like to use the leg press when I do deadlifts as pulling loads up my back and squatting would be uncomfortable.
So then we have a basis here, lets just split this into two sessions for now.
Session 1 - Deadlift + Leg press
Session 2 - Squat + GM
We can alternate these to emphasize one lift over the other such as GM first, then squat based on whichever area needs emphasis. I personally like to GM before squatting as it tends to loosen me up for my squat session without making a huge dent in my strength.
Ok, so we have the lowers and lumbar covered. We move on to uppers.
We have to push weight to build a good set of triceps and shoulders which suggests that we should include the military press in some fashion. We also know that the shoulders and triceps come into play during bench pressing and the triceps seem to become much more involved when completing dumbbell-type bench pressing movements. We also know that the medial shoulder cap responds well to the upright row and that it builds strength in the shoulder girdle so I am inclined to pick those two movements for shoulders as they seem to give us the best bang for the buck.
With respect to bench pressing, I'm going to call this user choice here but I would emphasize that the flat barbell bench press can be dangerous for certain anatomical configurations ( long torso people who see an extreme stretch of the pec at the bottom of the lift). My vote is for incline barbell or dumbbell bench and either flat or mild decline dumbbell bench.
Back. Simple, we have erectors and traps covered, all we need to do is row and/or chin(pulldown). A simple way to go here is to consider what you dont have. If you have thickness but no width, perhaps run chins for 4 weeks and then go 50/50 row and pulldown and continue to loop. If you have width, perhaps you need width, so 4 weeks of rows, then 50/50. If you have a balanced back, you can go 50/50 from day one. Either the barbell or dumbbell row will work. I tend to like dumbbell rowing over the barbell but use the bar....I hate it but I want to get strong at it. As I said, you will find a level of comfort with a certain lift and I would just go with it.....as long as you are rowing dead weight that is not suspended from a pivot - ie, tbar, hammer, etc.
Triceps. Best exercise for power and size is the close grip bench press in my opinion. Skull crushers cause a lot of folks discomfort in the elbow region so I'd probably not recommend them as a general rule. For a second exercise, the pulley pushdown is effective and easy on the triceps tendons.
Biceps...and forearms. Your forearms will probably get a good thrashing from the pulling and rowing so you probably wont need to train them directly...but you might already for BJJ. Dont MMA guys usually have a strong grip??? The rule here is to use the most effective exercise to get the most results with the least amount of work. The 'most effective' based on the bompa/cornaccia IEMG studies were the seated lying incline dumbbell curl and the preacher curl - believe it was dumbbell. Oddly enough, we know from practical experience that guys who curl a lot of weight on the 7 foot olympic bar tend to have big arms. Here, I am going to say follow your instincts and pick a good exercise that is comfortable.
Calves. Your calves will respond well to all the floor work you are doing but you should train them each session if they are lagging. I like the seated toe raise,the donkey calf machine, and this incline thing that seems to give me more flair in the gastroc. For a while, I did standing toe raises. Just go with what you need here - if you need more soleus thickness, then hit the seated calf. If you need more gastroc, then the standing and the donkey.
Now, when I say 5-6 sets of squats, I'll give you an example. Lets say that you intend to train with 405 for the day. You might get there by going 135->225->315->405 or you might make hops like 135->195->295->365->405 see the extra warmup? In either case what you are looking for is a couple of sets at your target poundage.....thats about all you need. You might move in smaller increments for chest - say it takes you 3 warmup sets to go from the 60s to the 125s and you do two sets with the 125s. I'm sure you see where I am going with this. The set count includes warmups.
With respect to rep range, since you are going to modulate your loading, I do not recommend the 10-8-6 you've been doing because you have to try and extrapolate 3 sets of training poundages - ie how close to a 10rm you are going to use and then how that will affect your performance under the 8 rep and 6 rep loads and trying to periodize all 3. You're better off going with 8. Zats said 7-11 was a good range. 8 is in there. All you will have to do is calculate loading during your training block for one load.
Now, periodization, I'm going to assume that you know a bit about this as you will need to apply it. I foresee, simply rotating these two sessions on an EOD basis but for no more than 3 days per week. In other words, if you train M-W-F, then you do session 1, then 2, then 1 again. Now, you will modulate the loading. You could use a heavy light heavy light system with poundages increasing over a 4-6 week pattern followed by a deloading period or you might do a light-heavy-medium and factor your training disposition into how you load - some days, you might not want to push big weight but you might also feel a bit more eager than pushing light weights. Again, if you've been training for years, you know the signs.
Now, with respect to literature, the list is comprised of books JS recommended to me as well as some other stuff that I went after on my own;
"The Science and Practice of Strength Training" Zatsiorsky
"Supertraining" Siff
"Periodization" Bompa
"Serious Strength Training" Bompa & Cornaccia
"The Weightlifting Encyclopedia" Dreschler
Kinesiology - JS teaches out of Brooks and Fahey. I bought a cheap Michael Yessis book.
I think these books will benefit you in your understanding of training methods. The first two are probably the meat and potatoes of the list as you will get off the ground and running. The fourth book contains the IEMG studies and pictures of a couple of hot betties in lycra. The fifth book is one that I can only explain as the big picture. Its a long and arduous read but you walk away from the book understanding that people train in different ways and achieve world class results. A kinesiology text is also very good to have if you dont have one already.
You can buy these books at elitefts.com or try to pick them up on amazon.com. I like to find books on amazon used as I dont have to pay tax and often qualify for free shipping....and many of the texts that I have purchased used from amazon vendors were for all intents and purposes as new as being on the bookshelf at Barnes & Noble.
Elitefts sells the russian texts and you can also buy them from Bud Chanigra's company....dynamic-eleiko.com. You will also find that they have some really cool olympic and strong man videos on the site if that type of stuff interests you. Oh, and if you were ever looking for rehband wraps and the like, dynamic-eleiko is the place.
I'm glad that you have learned to love the DLs, Mark. Are you looking to maybe enhance performance in the BJJ also? If that's the case, then it seems an emphasis on pulling movements would be a good choice.
I, too, have been coming up with some new thoughts on routines to fit my new schedule. In that end, I came up with a 3 day. I'm not totally sure that I'm happy with it, but I'll put it out for you and LMK what you think. I'm sure you couldn't possibly go wrong with Hogg's advice, either. He'll never steer you wrong. His might even be better than mine(if that's possible )
Anyhow:
Mon-
Squats- 5X5
Bench- 5X5
Military- 3 or 4X3
RDL- 3X10
Wed-
Cleans- 5 or 6X3
Deadlifts- 3X3
Rows- 2X6(maybe more sets depending on how your low back holds up)
Fri-
Squats- (repeat Monday)
RDL- 3X10
Hang cleans- 5 or 6X3
Incline- 3 or 4X6
I developed it with more of an empasis on strength/performance, but I think hypertrophy is an inevitability of following it, so it should fit your goals.
Plus, our training is similar. Granted, I do considerably more work from an upright position(I've never seen a BJJ class that didn't presuppose the takedown) we're still in the same boat, more or less.
Take it for what it's worth. Hopefully, it has proven helpful.
He's cheating on me? That bastard! I thought I was the only one with the special PM invitation to lend my insight, if that's what you can call it.
LOL. Yeah, I PMed both of you. I wanted to hear Hogg's advice, because, well, quite simply...there is probably no one on the board I would trust more with building a proper routine. The guy knows his training, no if-ands-or-buts about it. Plus, I asked Hogg for a list of books I could read in order to increase my knowledge of training theory. To me, a 5x5 is the size of a square, not a lifting routine! So who better than Hogg to guide my baby-steps in the right direction?
I wanted your advice too Grizzly because you are used to mixing a weight routine with a fighter's training routine, so your advice is golden as well. Also, you turned me on to deadlifts, and I will tell you, those things have really changed my physique. I am never going to do a routine without deadlifts.
Besides, it is both of your faults anyways! I used to be a little biceps-in-the-power-cage puss, and now I am obsessed with lifts such as the deadlift and Bent-Over Barbell Rows! So, if you think about it, the only person you can blame for this post is yourselves!
Also, I printed this thread out, so I can go through it with a fine tooth comb. Give me until tonight to read through it thoroughly, and I will respond with any questions, comments or overall mass confusion...
Thanks again for your time gentlemen...
P.S. It is an honor to be considered your friend (to both of you).
I just realized something late last night in bed. When I put this together, I was thinking about 2x per week training, not 3x per week training....and doing this routine 3x per week will require the following:
1.) A lot of restraint in terms of loading. With such high frequency of training, it would be best to roll the wave over 3 sessions with some very marked changes in training poundages. As a matter of fact, the light day might involve using the warmup poundages and skipping the latter sets which were reserved for target loads. On the medium day, the loads should be very easy on the body, perhaps 15-20# under target for torso muscle groups and 30-40# under target for back and thighs. "Heavy" day would be much less than a true 8RM. Obviously, the intent is to subject the body to progressive overload but the rate of progression will be dictated by the individual's recuperative capabilities.
2.) A heavy emphasis on food and rest. I would venture to say that cals 1000 over maintenance would be a good baseline and perhaps protein on the order of 1 to 1.5gm per #.
3.) If necessary, you should extend the recuperative period between sessions. In other words, M-W-F might be tough. If you were overzealous on Wednesday and are feeling a little zapped on Friday, you might do Friday on Saturday and bump the whole schedule out. Through really tight and conservative periodization, I think you can make it work but often, most guys, myself included, do a little too much on a light or med day
Ideally MK, if you had a 4th day that you could throw in, we could concoct a nice 2x upper/lower split. That would be much easier to work with. Or, on the other hand, we could say 2x per week whole body but I think you will be beat to death at the end of your training session. I feel that the 3rd session adds much complexity to the program as loading has to be reduced.
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